The AoM Travel Guide

[Dom Pedro II]

So I think that Martin Luther's 95 Theses should require a Cathedral as a prerequisite building because Martin Luther needs a door to nail his theses on...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Also... anybody have any ideas what the building stats for a Mission could be?

I really wish they had buildings that helped in assimiliation...

 

[Ozymandias]

Ozy seems to have disappeared... I just wanted to bump this up as a reminder if he should pop his head in.

Ozy will be appearing and disappearing on a sporadic basis between now and September 3rd, inclusive

More thoughts --

First an assumption -- that you'll doing a lot with Era=None techs.

That having been said (and essentially going through your list in order, leaving out items I've already commented upon):

1. "Red Light District" should appear with Currency

2. "Block Printing" should allow the printing of paper money.

3. You might want to role Taoism and Confucianism into one (old Chinese saying: "A man is a Taoist when he is poor and a Confucian when he is rich.").

4. "Prefectural Schools" and "Compulsory Education" should really fall under the same heading and allow the building of Public Schools -- the question is how muich knowledge a Confucian Academy should generate, given how inward-looking they were.

5. Personally I'd leave out the likes of Basket Weaving and Goat Herding as too basic -- if you've got cities, you've got basic storage vessels and domesticated food/milk animals.

6. Ziggurats should replace Cathedrals -- each religious grouping should have its own Cathedral equivalent, which can be quite different (some can encourage trade from pilgrimage, others generate shields from taxation via religious authorities, etc.).

7. An "Individual Liberties" tech available only to certain Civs. Allows building of "Declaration Of Universal Rights Of Man"; "Habeus Corpus"; Constitutional Democracy gov. This can differentiate between those Civs which did and/or could (given their cultural and historical circumstances) develop individualism as an ideal and those which can't/haven't. I'd argue that in a 4000BCE-2050CE timeframe democracy is not a universal inevitability.

8. "Imperlialism" should be a tech encompassing "Manifest Destiny", a set of wonders which generates ships, colonists, explorers, whatever.

9. "Jazz" should be the American national artform (see above post).

10. Also for America and/or others, an "Isolationism" tech -- "Fortress America" a wonder generating defensive units; "Forbidden Palace" in a more historically accurate role; etc.

11. What's a "Gallic Reaper"?

Best,

Oz

 

[Ozymandias]

So I think that Martin Luther's 95 Theses should require a Cathedral as a prerequisite building because Martin Luther needs a door to nail his theses on...

I'd say each Civ should be able to develop a "National Religion" (e.g., Protestanism) with a certain number of Cathedral / Ziggurat / Whatever requirements. The 95 Theses would be subsumed by this.

-Oz

 

[Ozymandias]

Also... anybody have any ideas what the building stats for a Mission could be?

I really wish they had buildings that helped in assimiliation...

Methinks a mission should have some defense, generate trade, and produce one Happy Camper.

,

Oz

 

[Dom Pedro II]

A Gallic Reaper is a mechanical device used by the Celtic-Roman peasants of Gaul which cut the wheat and simultaneously collected it in a cart... very 18th century of them...

Every civ or cultural group produces a Cathedral equivalent, that's already been decided upon... so far, the variants are: Cathedral, Ziggurat, Synagogue, Mosque, Teocalli, and Temple of Inti.

Anyway, we seem to be on the same page with a lot of these ideas here, but you still haven't explained how I am supposed to make civ-specific buildings without making their prerequisite technologies civ-specific...

 

[Xen]

a question;
why only those three branches of religion? there have been many, many what ifs, and near-shot possibilties in history, and ranking at the top of those lists, are topics that deal with religion... I'd be interested, to say the least, to a europe based ona divergence of the Mithraic religion... or even the cult of isis and what not...

a suggestion
I have not, as yet, read through the entire thread, so i do not know if you have addressed Rome or not, not I would liek to put in a bit of word;

if possible, you need ot make Rome, well, weirdlly to be quite honest. it shoudl have techs, and goverments that, provides a good deal of money, but have troops that cost a good deal of resources to make, but also, a few alternatives that are dirt cheap, and dirt poor as far as military units go; more over, it goes that, if Rome can defend its borders, it dose fine, if the barbarians break through to pillage the lands around cities, and disrupt the economy, well, all can go to hell, as unit support cant be maintiand, and th eplayer lacks resources to make the good units, so has to resort to the bad and... i think you get the drift...

 

[Ozymandias]

Anyway, we seem to be on the same page with a lot of these ideas here, but you still haven't explained how I am supposed to make civ-specific buildings without making their prerequisite technologies civ-specific...

You have to make broad-stroke decisions and, for instance, to borrow from Kipling, decide that "East is East and West is West". By which I mean that certain Civs wound up basing their ethos on individual responsibility whereas others work on collective responsibility (this remains true today even in e.g. Japan, where the workings of "Democracy" would befuddle most Westerners).

So give some Civs "Individualism" and some "Collectivism" and derive techs (including military doctrine -- NATO vs. Warsaw Pact) accordingly. Have some hybrid form if representing modern Korea / Japan / etc. is hugely important.

(BTW, for some cutting-edge controversy, read R.E.Nesbett's "The Geography Of Thought -- How Asians And Westerners Think Differently ... and Why").

Abraxas,

Oz

 

[Dom Pedro II]

a question;
why only those three branches of religion? there have been many, many what ifs, and near-shot possibilties in history, and ranking at the top of those lists, are topics that deal with religion... I'd be interested, to say the least, to a europe based ona divergence of the Mithraic religion... or even the cult of isis and what not...

a suggestion
I have not, as yet, read through the entire thread, so i do not know if you have addressed Rome or not, not I would liek to put in a bit of word;

if possible, you need ot make Rome, well, weirdlly to be quite honest. it shoudl have techs, and goverments that, provides a good deal of money, but have troops that cost a good deal of resources to make, but also, a few alternatives that are dirt cheap, and dirt poor as far as military units go; more over, it goes that, if Rome can defend its borders, it dose fine, if the barbarians break through to pillage the lands around cities, and disrupt the economy, well, all can go to hell, as unit support cant be maintiand, and th eplayer lacks resources to make the good units, so has to resort to the bad and... i think you get the drift...

1. There's only three Religious Groups. Every civilization has it's own religion, but there are only three religions that are common to more than one civilization. For example, why aren't Judaism and Hinduism included in the ones I mentioned above to make the Big Five? Well, because they are only for one civilization, Israel and India respectively. But if you play as Israel or India, you will have to research those religions, same as if you play as the Aztecs you'll have to research their religion, and the same goes for the Egyptians and basically any other civ in the game except for the ones that fall within Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam.

So basically, in the game, there's several geographic/cultural/religious groups:

• MesoAmerican
• Middle East (non-Arab)
• Christian
• Buddhist
• Muslim
• Africa
• North American

If I could give each civ at the outset of the game 5 techs instead of for, I'd make Mediterrenean and European classes (maybe I'll just give one real tech instead of two?)

Any tech that has one of these non-era techs as a prerequisite falls into the second most expensive class of technologies, the first most expensive being all-civ techs.

2. No one has posted anything about Rome, so thank you. I'll take these suggestions under advisement and see what I come up with...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

You have to make broad-stroke decisions and, for instance, to borrow from Kipling, decide that "East is East and West is West". By which I mean that certain Civs wound up basing their ethos on individual responsibility whereas others work on collective responsibility (this remains true today even in e.g. Japan, where the workings of "Democracy" would befuddle most Westerners).

So give some Civs "Individualism" and some "Collectivism" and derive techs (including military doctrine -- NATO vs. Warsaw Pact) accordingly. Have some hybrid form if representing modern Korea / Japan / etc. is hugely important.

(BTW, for some cutting-edge controversy, read R.E.Nesbett's "The Geography Of Thought -- How Asians And Westerners Think Differently ... and Why").

Abraxas,

Oz

Ozy, you still haven't answered the question though... If I make a generic tech like "National Religion" and then have a specific Wonder for every single civilization, any civ can still build that Wonder... so how can I make it so that only X civilization can build X improvement without civ-specific technologies? Or civ-specific resources, which, as I said, without a pre-placed map would get really tough.

 

[Xen]

An idea

perhaps gold should be turned into a strategic resource; after all, even until the 20ith the century, the wealth of many nations has been based on gold, and in times before it, gold was the great spurring of conquest, in no way more visible then the SPanish and Portugese conquests in the new world...

besides, it could eb useful to help those ideas foe the Romans I had, for if any one good unit requires multiple resources to make, cutting off nay oen resource means they can no longer produce said unit awesome unit, and have to reach into the crappy pile of units until they can get said resource back (if they can get it back)

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Interesting possibility. I'll take it into consideration.

 

[Ozymandias]

Ozy, you still haven't answered the question though... If I make a generic tech like "National Religion" and then have a specific Wonder for every single civilization, any civ can still build that Wonder... so how can I make it so that only X civilization can build X improvement without civ-specific technologies? Or civ-specific resources, which, as I said, without a pre-placed map would get really tough.

You can't -- You'd be using a matrix of Era=None techs, one (if need be) for each Civ, and one "generic", OR two generic -- e.g., so that building Martin Luther's Theses would be available with "Protestanism", which itself would have as precursor Era=None techs "Christianity" and "Individualism". This would allow (for argument's sake) any Western Christian nation to build the Wonder.

Carrying it a bit further, as each Civ can start with 4 techs, a Civ could be German, Western Christian, Individualistic, and whatever else is required. I'm not saying it's not complicated, nor that it won't require many optional techs, only that it can be done.

Examples:
German + Christian + Individualism + National Religion = Lutheranism
French + Christian + Individualism + National Religion = Huguenot (sp?)
Russian + Christian + Collectivism + National Religion = Orthodox

So, in this schema, the mandatory (?) tech "National Religion" might allow nothing in the way of builds, but would branch immediately to the (very inexpensive) techs listed above, each with its own goody to build, non-tradeable, etc.

-- Or am I still somehow way off the mark??

As Ever,

Oz

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Actually, Dom Pedro, Hinduism did span more than one region, not just India. It entered Southeast Asia as well, where it had a significant cultural impact. The people of Bali in Indonesia are still currently Hindu. If you decide include Southeast Asian civs as well, then you should include Hinduism as one of the major "Religious Groups".

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Actually, Dom Pedro, Hinduism did span more than one region, not just India. It entered Southeast Asia as well, where it had a significant cultural impact. The people of Bali in Indonesia are still currently Hindu. If you decide include Southeast Asian civs as well, then you should include Hinduism as one of the major "Religious Groups".

My point was not that Hinduism in history did not span to other regions... merely that within the confines of the 31 civilizations featured in the game, none of the others are Hindu.

However, if I do add the Khmer/Cambodians, then it would make sense maybe to start them off with Hinduism and then switch at a later point to Buddhism.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

For the Iroquois, I have been working on their culture... They basically are focused around the Gayanashagowa, the Iroquois Constitution.

They have other techs such as Mocassins, Wampum, and Matriarchy, but these are the peripheral techs.

Basically, the line runs from The Great Law, which is the Gayanashagowa, and allows for the government called Hodensaunee League. Originally, I had planned for a tech called Tribal Confederation to come in after The Great Law, but I think that'd just be redundant. I thought originally that The Great Law was more of just a philosophy, but I see now that it is the Constitution itself.

But the Constitution does have several major drawbacks... one of which being that it's oral, which can lead to corruption with time. So maybe I should have some kind of tech to reflect an improvement via a written form of the Constitution... I'm not sure where it should go though and what it should do.... Maybe it should open the door to a more well-structured political and judicial system...

Also, the Iroquois, for all of their democratic tendencies, suffered from an arrogance that we thought we only saw in the Old World empires. They referred to themselves as Ongwi Honwi or "superior people"... which I kind of think ought to be a tech, but I'm not sure how that'd work.....

Anyway, this attitude eventually led to a development called the Covenant Chain which extended limited membership to conquered or servile peoples under Iroquois influence or rule. So I'm going to make that a tech that will be a segway into a new and wholly fictional tech called the Great Iroquois Reform.

Basically, this tech encompasses a lot of different changes to the Constitution that basically deals with its major failings that ultimately doomed the Confederacy in real history. It includes: eliminating the need for a unanimous vote on all matters by the council, removing Onondaga, Mohawk, and Seneca superiority in the council, reorganizing the number of representatives on the basis of population rather than by the old tradition which gave the Onondaga incredibly lopsided representation, and also setting up a system allowing other tribes to join the League eventually and to be given full, equal status within the system after having passed through the proper processes.

 

[Ozymandias]

Also, the Iroquois, for all of their democratic tendencies, suffered from an arrogance that we thought we only saw in the Old World empires. They referred to themselves as Ongwi Honwi or "superior people"... which I kind of think ought to be a tech, but I'm not sure how that'd work.....

Anyway, this attitude eventually led to a development called the Covenant Chain which extended limited membership to conquered or servile peoples under Iroquois influence or rule. So I'm going to make that a tech that will be a segway into a new and wholly fictional tech called the Great Iroquois Reform.

Basically, this tech encompasses a lot of different changes to the Constitution that basically deals with its major failings that ultimately doomed the Confederacy in real history. It includes: eliminating the need for a unanimous vote on all matters by the council, removing Onondaga, Mohawk, and Seneca superiority in the council, reorganizing the number of representatives on the basis of population rather than by the old tradition which gave the Onondaga incredibly lopsided representation, and also setting up a system allowing other tribes to join the League eventually and to be given full, equal status within the system after having passed through the proper processes.

Indeed, you are describing a situation which is analagous to ancient Rome, insofar as the application of citizenship etc. to subject peoples goes. Perhaps a more widely encompassing (i.e., less Civ specific) approach would serve you well? -- As you know, I've always differentiated between ancient and modern republics; perhaps this would suit you here? Just a thought.

-Oz

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Indeed, you are describing a situation which is analagous to ancient Rome, insofar as the application of citizenship etc. to subject peoples goes. Perhaps a more widely encompassing (i.e., less Civ specific) approach would serve you well? -- As you know, I've always differentiated between ancient and modern republics; perhaps this would suit you here? Just a thought.

-Oz

Yes, well, unfortunately, ozy, as much as I like your suggestions, they are working essentially against the overall purpose of this mod which is to create greater variation among the civs...

 

[Ozymandias]

Yes, well, unfortunately, ozy, as much as I like your suggestions, they are working essentially against the overall purpose of this mod which is to create greater variation among the civs...

Hmmm ... Even when/where you'd wind up with very similar tech lines and results? -- Wherever that happens, IMHO some critical-if-subtle variation could be used, such as, What if the Covenant Chain didn't lead to full membership in the society, and something more feudal -- a cross between feudal and republic -- emerged instead?

-- Just trying to keep you on your toes.

Best,

Oz

 

[Dom Pedro II]

So if The Great Law gives the Hodensaunee League government, should Covenant Chain lead to another new government for the Iroquois?