I hate to disappoint you but I've never heard of Operation Atilla. (I had no idea when said war of independence was either until I looked it up). I believe you've fallen victim to Small Reference Pools.
The Battle of.....(Name Recognition)
- Thread starter Smellincoffee
- Start date
r16
not deity
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malazgirt: yes
miryakefalon: no
kösedağ: no , unless it's a side note for entire Alevi sufferings ; ı certainly fail remember to mention it anyday
fetih: sure
viyana : yes , others only as quickly forgotten names in history lessons at school
kurtuluş savaşı: yes
cyprus: ı would say Atilla is the 2nd phase in August . The July landings were straight Peace Operation , a military code-name would have "lessened" that angle . Never minding the all knowing Wikipedia on the subject . Considering ı know people who know people who know people who landed and etc etc ...
much referenced in bragging and stuff , but fails to reference what the Uluç Ali Paşa said in return ; or at least should have said . With loss of trained personnel and hastily prepared from unseasoned timber , that fleet was quickly out of use , even if Tunus or someting was taken with it . Many foreigners write especially the loss of Archers was a huge blow to Turkish seapower with each one needing years and years of practice ; nothing of the sort in Turkish . Considering it's not a failing of the Old Republic , doubt it will ever be mentioned as well .
muhtesem insan
Amateur Revolutionary
some of them are not really that influence on people and only some wars they memorized in high school history class and forgot. Such as Battle of Myriokephalon or Battle of Sırp Sındığı. (they have historical significance of course but this thread is about perception of battles rather than historical significance)
But almost no one knows that it's called Operation Atilla.
Actually yes, you're right. Many people know that with different name.
MilesGregarius
Half-baked Renegade
I think my fellow Yanks have underestimated the general ignorance of your average American.
There are only three battles that I am truly confident enough to say "everybody" knows:
There are a few more that I'm less sure about, but might reach the level of 'general knowledge':
In the South, a few major Civil War battles could be added to the list, but elsewhere, I doubt they would register.
There are only three battles that I am truly confident enough to say "everybody" knows:
- Gettysburg
- Pearl Harbor
- D-Day
There are a few more that I'm less sure about, but might reach the level of 'general knowledge':
- Bunker Hill (less important but more famous than Lexington/Concord, Saratoga, or Yorktown - whites of their eyes and all that.)
- the Alamo (assuming Texian history qualifies.)
- Custer's Last Stand (not sure if Little Bighorn would register as much.)
- Midway
- the Battle of the Bulge (not counting those who assume this refers to obesity.)
- Iwo Jima
- Pork Chop Hill (for the catchy name and/or eponymous movie.)
- Hamburger Hill (for the same reasons.)
In the South, a few major Civil War battles could be added to the list, but elsewhere, I doubt they would register.
Josu
Emperor
I consider that the general public in my country has no knowledge of history. I have a little interest, but I am awfull for names, dates and so on, so I consider myself an ignorant, however I have more knowledge than an average person.
So definetively in my Basque history battle list I will include wiothout doubt:
- Battle of Orreaga/Roncesvaux I have always been thought that the Vascones attacked the Franks in that pass in revenge of the destruction of the walls of Pamplona by Charlemagne's troups, however I do know as well that in France based on The Song of Roland it was thaught that they were the moors who attacked the Franks. Some historians consider that it was a mix of both moors and basques as the Banu Qasi were allies of the Kingdom of Pamplona
-Battle of Noain Considered as the begining of the end of the Kingdom of Navarre. Since then all south basque territories has been linked to Castilila/Spain
- It is not a battle, it's a set battles, Spanish Civil war battles in the north. I would include here the Santoña Agreement, but it was not a battle. I consider this agreement as the one of most disgraceful acts of the Basque nationalism during the Spanish Civil war
So definetively in my Basque history battle list I will include wiothout doubt:
- Battle of Orreaga/Roncesvaux I have always been thought that the Vascones attacked the Franks in that pass in revenge of the destruction of the walls of Pamplona by Charlemagne's troups, however I do know as well that in France based on The Song of Roland it was thaught that they were the moors who attacked the Franks. Some historians consider that it was a mix of both moors and basques as the Banu Qasi were allies of the Kingdom of Pamplona
-Battle of Noain Considered as the begining of the end of the Kingdom of Navarre. Since then all south basque territories has been linked to Castilila/Spain
- It is not a battle, it's a set battles, Spanish Civil war battles in the north. I would include here the Santoña Agreement, but it was not a battle. I consider this agreement as the one of most disgraceful acts of the Basque nationalism during the Spanish Civil war
According to Wikipedia, active Polish pilots only numbered 0.5% of the total Allied strength. It seems that they scored the highest number of kills, certainly, but going from there to claiming it as a 'Polish' battle seems to reek of nationalism.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
I have the following data for active pilots (according to this data, Poles were 6% not 0.5%):
British - 1878
Poles - 141 (6%)
Canadians - 88
Czechoslovakians - 88
New Zealanders - 73
Belgians - 26
Australians - 21
South Africans - 21
Free French - 13
Irish - 8
Americans - 7
South Rhodesians - 2
Palestinians - 2
Total: 2368 (100%)
I wrote that it was a battle in Polish history, not that it was a "Polish" battle.
As far as I know, British people count Waterloo as "British" battle.
This is despite the fact, that there were only 31,000 (26.3%) British soldiers out of 118,000 total force of the Seventh Coalition at Waterloo.
And even those 31,000 "British" soldiers included 6,000 men of the King's German Legion. So actual British soldiers were 25,000 (21.1%).
Wikipedia disagrees on the exact number, but Poles were about one-twentieth of the total number, yes. I don't know why I wrote 0.5%, rather than 5%.
Given that this thread is about battles that remain in the public consciousness, I'm not sure the British public would even remember Waterloo. I think they'd be more likely to remember Agincourt.
Given that this thread is about battles that remain in the public consciousness, I'm not sure the British public would even remember Waterloo. I think they'd be more likely to remember Agincourt.
Not sure, I think Waterloo comes up often enough in idiom (and, as I said before, ABBA songs) to keep at least the name alive. It's also a Tube station, and there are quite a lot of Waterloo Roads.
That said, if you asked somebody to put a date on it, or even point at the battlefield on a map, that might be somewhat more difficult.
That said, if you asked somebody to put a date on it, or even point at the battlefield on a map, that might be somewhat more difficult.
Fair enough. Going by that too, since "the" Duke of Wellington was the commander of over half the forces of the Seventh Coalition at Waterloo, I don't think it would be unfair to say that it was in fact a very important "British" battle, whatever that phrase actually means.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Vienna was more a Polish battle than Waterloo was a British battle. Let's compare:
Vienna 1683:
1) Forces under Sobieski's supreme command:
Poland - 37,000 (including 3,700 Zaporozhian Cossacks)
Habsburgs - 18,450 (including 2,800 men in Hieronim Lubomirski's Polish Corps on Austrian payroll)
Bavaria - 10,500
Swabia & Franconia - 9,500
Saxony - 9,000
Total: 84,450
Grand total: 84,450
Waterloo 1815:
1) Forces under Wellington's supreme command:
United Kingdom - 31,000 (including 6,000 men in King's German Legion on British payroll)
Netherlands - 17,000
Hanover - 11,000
Brunswick - 6,000
Nassau - 3,000
Total: 68,000
2) Forces under Bluecher's supreme command:
Prussia - 50,000
Total: 50,000
Grand total: 118,000
Yes. But Polish King Jan Sobieski was the commander in chief of all forces of the Anti-Turkish Coalition at Vienna.
Sobieski was also the main author of the battle plan. And he had most experience in fighting against the Turks. Which is why he became the CiC.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Yeah - the walls of Vienna were already breached (or almost breached) when the relief force arrived. So the city was close to collapse.
Turks waited long because Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Pasha didn't want to destroy the city to the ground. Even, Turks planned the ceremony when they get the city and they wanted to city remain as beautiful as before conquest. But they didn't consider a Polish help. and they shocked with cavalry charge of Poland.
You may note that I said I didn't know why the Battle of Vienna was an important "Polish" battle, not that it wasn't one. If I was going to insult your beloved Poland, I'd be much more obvious than that.
muhtesem insan
Amateur Revolutionary
According to Ottoman Tradition if a city surrendered it could not be looted, but if it was taken by force Soldiers would loot the city for 3 days. Vienna was an important cultural centre and Kara Mustafa Pasha didn't want this to happen.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Yes I know, I know. I wasn't "accusing" you of anything. I compared these battles "just so" (not as a direct response to your post).
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It was probably one of the largest cavalry charges in history - 20,000 horsemen rode down the hill - front of that charging cavalry formation was about 4 km wide. 20,000 Polish and German cavalry (spearheaded in first row by around 3,000 Winged Hussars deployed in a single line) charged downhill:
Obóz turecki - Turkish camp
Wiedeń - the city of Vienna (defended by garrison under Starhemberg)
Tatarzy - Tatars
In the center of Turkish lines - near Ottakring - Janissaries were deployed.
According to Turkish accounts - Janissaries were holding bravely against that charge for some time, before finally perishing.
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BTW:
Ground for that massive cavalry charge had been carefully prepared in advance (it took several hours). And before the main charge also some reconnaissance charges (reconnaissance in force) by small units were carried out, to check where the ground was most favourable for a decisive charge.
You can't just send cavalry to charge randomly and blindly, without previously examining the terrain, like Ney did at Waterloo.
