The best Warmonger?

[huerfanista]

Best warmonger? Boudica, hands down IMO. Here's my thoughts from the current ALC:

There's incredible synergy between the aggressive and charismatic traits, and AFAIK Boudica's the only one who can take advantage of this. Consider: you can produce commando melee/gunpowder units at 13XP! That is barracks, theo, 2 GGs, and West Point. You can easily unlock WP with just 3 promos early (since you start with C1 and G1 swords, and charismatic promos come at 2, 4, and 8XP), which is very easy to do at an early stage. So if you pick out a top-notch production site (either in you territory or your opponent's ) and build WP and HE there, you will easily be able to build commando rifles in 1 or 2 turns (and commando maces are not out of the question). The key is settling your first 2 GGs there. You haven't seen anything until you've seen a stack of commando rifles moving through enemy territory and taking cities like nobody's business. In fact, once you get RR, you can start building a rail line to your next victim's capital in advance of your DOW; take the border city with your conventional units and the enemy capital with a stack of commando rifles on the same turn. Further, you can produce commando cavalry at 20XP, which is just a stable and 2 more settled GGs. Imagine the possibilities!

Now, I know you don't want to give up that Medic3 chariot mash unit, but consider this: a Woodsman3 Medic1 melee unit has the exact same healing power for units in the same square (it only lacks the adjacent square healing compared to the Medic3 unit). You can get that W3M1 unit with just 4 promos, which is 13XP with Boudica (and you get the +15% healing bonus of W3 after the 3rd promo at 8 XP). So not building that mash unit is not as painful as it might seem. If you get an axe out early fighting barbs, you can easily get him to W3 (barb XP are capped at 10, right? and you get W3 at 8XP with CHA).

Add to that the fact that gallic warriors (available with copper OR iron) with G3 get a 50% withdrawal chance (and G3CR2-3 are easy to get after a few battles) and you're looking at some ridiculously powerful early attackers.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I think it's a trade-off tie between Bootycall and Cyrus. Agg is a good 1-level promo boost, but the imp-cha combo means you blast gg's faster. Add in the gw, and you're just SWIMMING in gg's early and often, with the faster promotions as well.

What tips it to Cyrus for me is my hatred of the "gallic warrior" UU. Guerilla I, are you f'ing kidding me?

 

[civvver]

Any leader can be a good warmonger. If you have a economic traits leader just build a huge tech lead then go to war! You won't need warfare traits if your rifles and cannons are fighting muskets. I win most of my games as conquest or vassal voted un victory and usually with a financial leader.

 

[Derp]

My favorite warmongers are Napoleon Boneparte and Zara Yacob. They seem to be the only ones I have any luck with..... The angry French-Italian needs no introduction, and I just can't say no to not wasting time on cultural borders and an easy time recovering from devouring another country just makes me smile. Throw in Drill 4 Oromo Warriors or give Napoleon a different nation and you've got it made.

 

[mirthadir]

I'm going to say that getting Republic is still more important to Obsolete's game because even an Early ChoKoNu isn't going to compare to the extra 3 and 3 beakers per turn from each of his umpty-zillion settled great people. That's obviously not going to be optimal on larger maps, but individual cities with lots of settled Great People is kind of Obsolete's theme (and a very effective strategy in the right circumstances).

Who said anything about not having Rep? Just because you don't build the Mids, doesn't mean you can't use them

 

[huerfanista]

@skallgrimson-

What tips it to Cyrus for me is my hatred of the "gallic warrior" UU. Guerilla I, are you f'ing kidding me?

You're joking, right? Have you ever used (as in, "take advantage of") gallics under Boudica? Free G1C1 promo, that's bad? Gets to level 6 (for WP) at 8XP - you "hate" that? G3C1 (4XP) gives you +50% hills defense, +25% hills attack (better than CR1), double movement on hills, and +10% strength. Oh yeah, I REALLY hate that. Ever try using a G3C1CR2 gallic (13XP) attacking a hill city? Yes, please. Are you f'ing kidding me?

I'm not dissing Cy, he's a very buff leader with a UU that can certainly be abused (depending on who you're facing). But the free C1 promo that AGG leaders gets leads to a lot of good things. For instance, any city with a barracks can produce level 3 melee/gunpowder units with 1 war civic. You can do a lot of damage with that.

Add in the gw, and you're just SWIMMING in gg's early and often, with the faster promotions as well.

I find that I do most of my warring in enemy territory, and in that case you only get a minimal GG benefit from the Wall.

Agg is a good 1-level promo boost, but the imp-cha combo means you blast gg's faster.

AGG is not only like having a free GG in every city, it also pays big dividends when shooting for high-promo units like commando (which really has to be tried to see just how good it is). You have to get a LOT more GGs to make up the difference - in fact (assuming 1 war civic and WP), AGG-CHA can build level 6 melee/gunpowder units with just 2 GGs (13XP), where a CHA-IMP leader needs 6 GGs (20XP). A 100% bonus to GGs (IMP) doesn't look so great in the case where you need 3 times as many of them.

@civvver-

Any leader can be a good warmonger. If you have a economic traits leader just build a huge tech lead then go to war! You won't need warfare traits if your rifles and cannons are fighting muskets. I win most of my games as conquest or vassal voted un victory and usually with a financial leader.

Yes, and any leader can run a good economy. I, too, favor the conquest, dom, and diplomation VCs. I just get there faster with Boudi. (But I Liz, though ).

 

[mirthadir]

AGG is not only like having a free GG in every city, it also pays big dividends when shooting for high-promo units like commando (which really has to be tried to see just how good it is). You have to get a LOT more GGs to make up the difference - in fact (assuming 1 war civic and WP), AGG-CHA can build level 6 melee/gunpowder units with just 2 GGs (13XP), where a CHA-IMP leader needs 6 GGs (20XP). A 100% bonus to GGs (IMP) doesn't look so great in the case where you need 3 times as many of them.

Cha is far more important for commando, of course Boudi has that too. The truth is, though, that agg is vastly inferior to Cha for warmongering. Agg does just about absolutely nothing for your economy, cheap rax is garbage for everyone but Shaka. Cha gives you a higher happy cap which can mean 20% higher output per city and hence 20% more units which handily beats the ~+15% per unit bonus you get from Agg. By the time you get up near the 3rd promo, Cha not only allows more units, it makes them better when you get them.

Most importantly Cha helps mounted, armor, and seige, the premier units for efficient warfare (not to mention naval and air); agg does nothing for any of these.

Yes, and any leader can run a good economy. I, too, favor the conquest, dom, and diplomation VCs. I just get there faster with Boudi.

On higher difficulties the opposite is true. Any leader can war monger, not any leader can run a good enough economy. The extra promo from ag is ~15% regardless of the number of promos; this utterly pales against getting another few turns of Rifles vs LBs and Muskets (which is ~125% bonus) before the AI nabs Mil Sci or Rifling (note that going with cannons this is even more skewed to make agg suck).

 

[PhroX]

On higher difficulties the opposite is true. Any leader can war monger, not any leader can run a good enough economy. The extra promo from ag is ~15% regardless of the number of promos; this utterly pales against getting another few turns of Rifles vs LBs and Muskets (which is ~125% bonus) before the AI nabs Mil Sci or Rifling (note that going with cannons this is even more skewed to make agg suck).

Agreed entirely. I generally consider the best warmongers to be the "hybrids" - those with one military trait (AGG/IMP/CHA/SPI*) and one economic (FIN/ORG/PHI).

* Yes, I consider SPI a "military" trait. The ability to switch instantly from your Rep/Beaur/Caste/Pac or US/FS/Ema/FR to a PS/Vass or Nat/Slav/Theo setup and then back again once you've got your army ready is just so powerful from a military point of view. I'd prefer SPI over even CHA for warmongering.

My 3 favourite warmongers would probably be:

1) Asoka - I explained SPI above. ORG helps pay for all the cities you capture and the cheap buildings are very helpful - CHs in you new cities, and Factories to fuel military production. The Fast Worker, although not military, is always useful, and the Mausoleum is more likely to come into play for military games - you're gonna want jails if your out conquering, and an extra couple of never hurts.

2) Victoria - FIN doesn't need explanations. IMP takes time to get going, but once you war machine is rolling, the GGs come think and fast, plus cheaper settlers is always a good thing. Redcoats, while not the unstoppable powerhouses from vanilla, are still good - a unit that you'll probably be building plenty of anyway, and they get a boost vs the more common units in it's era. The Stock Exchange just further boosts your economy.

3) Hannibal - FIN again, plus CHA which, with more promotions, and 2 extra , boosts both the military and economical sides of my empire. The Numidian Cav might not seem amazing at first glance, but it can be a very effective UU (particularly with more flanking promos) and the Cothon is incredible on a map with plenty of coast.

Other honourable mentions go to:
Julius Caesar - In all honesty, he's probably the most powerful - meeting my "hybrid" criteria, plus of course theres the Praets - but I just prefer the above three
Ragnar - God on water heavy maps.
Gandhi - It seems so wrong, but it works. Very micro-management heavy (switching from specialists to production, plus all the civic changes), but he's very effective.

 

[assass1n]

The human is the biggest backstabber who declares even if the AI leader is in love with you and can build an army even while having 1 warrior each for his garrison and do this with any leader

 

[Artichoker]

Cha is far more important for commando, of course Boudi has that too. The truth is, though, that agg is vastly inferior to Cha for warmongering. Agg does just about absolutely nothing for your economy, cheap rax is garbage for everyone but Shaka. Cha gives you a higher happy cap which can mean 20% higher output per city and hence 20% more units which handily beats the ~+15% per unit bonus you get from Agg. By the time you get up near the 3rd promo, Cha not only allows more units, it makes them better when you get them.

I'll have to disagree here about Agg vs. Cha.

Agg shines when you compare Swordsmen to Macemen. If you consider the cheaper cost of Swordsmen (40 ) compared to Macemen (70 ), Agg gives Swordsmen a fighting chance by raising their base Strength from 6 to 6.6. It's still not as high as a Maceman's base Strength of 8, but when you consider the +10% city attack and lower cost (4/7) of the Swordsmen, not to mention the higher XP payoff when winning battles at lower odds, Swordsmen with free Combat I become competitive compared to Macemen without free Combat I.

And I wouldn't say that Cha gives you 20% more , since you still need to spend to grow the cities to higher pop. Alternatively, the happy cap can be avoided by whipping the city to take advantage of high output. Both Cha and non-Cha can whip for more units, but Cha has the option of growing instead of whipping, which results in more long-term production, but not necessarily short-term...because whipping gets you below the happy cap.

Finally, we all are fond of Praetorians, with their 8 base Strength. However, Agg Swordsmen at 6.6 are not very far behind, with the additional +10% city attack and cheaper (40/45) cost. The question comes down to, would you rather have a Rolls-Royce on one continent (Australia), or a Lexus on 5 continents (take your pick...). Agg gives the free CI bonus on not only Swordsmen, but on Axemen, Spearmen, and Macemen as well.

 

[mirthadir]

I'll have to disagree here about Agg vs. Cha.

Agg shines when you compare Swordsmen to Macemen. If you consider the cheaper cost of Swordsmen (40 ) compared to Macemen (70 ), Agg gives Swordsmen a fighting chance by raising their base Strength from 6 to 6.6. It's still not as high as a Maceman's base Strength of 8, but when you consider the +10% city attack and lower cost (4/7) of the Swordsmen, not to mention the higher XP payoff when winning battles at lower odds, Swordsmen with free Combat I become competitive compared to Macemen without free Combat I.

And I wouldn't say that Cha gives you 20% more , since you still need to spend to grow the cities to higher pop. Alternatively, the happy cap can be avoided by whipping the city to take advantage of high output. Both Cha and non-Cha can whip for more units, but Cha has the option of growing instead of whipping, which results in more long-term production, but not necessarily short-term...because whipping gets you below the happy cap.

Finally, we all are fond of Praetorians, with their 8 base Strength. However, Agg Swordsmen at 6.6 are not very far behind, with the additional +10% city attack and cheaper (40/45) cost. The question comes down to, would you rather have a Rolls-Royce on one continent (Australia), or a Lexus on 5 continents (take your pick...). Agg gives the free CI bonus on not only Swordsmen, but on Axemen, Spearmen, and Macemen as well.

Why on earth are we comparing the the cost effectiveness of maces to swords? The real cost effective comparison is agg swords vs swords + pults. Or if you prefer agg swords + pults vs maces + pults. Using swords without pults is pretty much garbage, between culture (which the AI WILL have from monus and libs on higher difficulties), walls, and axes swords are a suckers bet (ignoring UUs). Getting pults sooner is ~300% improvement on the cost effectiveness of your military. Getting them an extra promo is ~50% improvement; this handily dwarfs the +15% to swords. Cha gives me a higher happy cap so on average I can build more pults, get there faster, or both.

Also, why on earth are you ignoring the number one killer of swords? Axes, particularly with shock? While swords are respectable vs archery units, two shock axes on a hill will eat your stack for lunch. Maces, being anti-melee themselves give a large increase in cost effectiveness that you completely ignore. But let's go further using swords long term means they are going to be hit by pults; lower base strength translates into an additional 2-4 turns for healing when the enemy suicides pults.

As far as the increased output of Cha. Let's go with the basics; happy cap of 5, one 5 resource (say corn) and sufficient green hills/plains to make analysis easy. Normally we'd work the corn and have 5 surplus (3 from corn and 2 from city), each grassland hill requires 1 food so we end up with 4 grassland hills being worked for 12 base with one surplus. Now we go Cha and have a happy cap of 7. This gives the option to work one grassland farm to work an additional hill. Thus resulting in 15 base and hence a 25% increase in output. But what about the low food scenario? Well in this case we have stupidly settled with no food resources and have only green hills/plains. Normal happy cap means that we can work 2 farms for a total surplus of 4 ; this then feeds 3 hills for 9 base (with one food surplus). Cha allows us to run 3 farms for a total surplus of 5 sufficient to feed 4 hills with one surplus; thus netting 12 base for a 33% increase in production. In either of these cases, in all but the shortest of terms I'm going to get more swords (pults) from working the hills.

Now I use 20% as a rule of thumb because you might have a few whip based cities mucking things up, or some resource only settlements or high early happy caps from furs, ivory, gold, and gems ... but as a ballpark low end 20% is pretty reasonable without HR/Rep. Of course the fact that this increase in production applies not only to unit production but also to rebuilding (or can be converted to ) means that the actual net gain for cha over agg is FAR higher.

As far as lexus vs rolls-royce. Whatever, agg is a one trick pony. Most of the an efficient war monger spends to create damage come from siege; agg does nothing for that while Cha is ownage for quickly getting CRIII pults. The next most efficient mode of damage is from armour; agg does nothing there while Cha is ownage for easy 3 promo mounted units out the door or quickly getting CRIII tanks. The next most efficient mode of damage is from air and naval assets; agg does nothing there while Cha makes those units FAR more survivable. In short, agg is a one trick pony; early rush or its mostly useless.

For the vast majority of units that agg actually helps (i.e. everything maces and later); its ~+15% increase is utterly dwarfed by GETTING THERE SOONER. Maces are strong enough relative to everything earlier that your biggest concerns are the enemy getting Xbows in quantity or getting mass castles (decimating your cost/time effectiveness). Likewise for rifles or grenades, +~15% (and that tends to be only if you draft) hitting sooner beats hitting stronger (14 v 9 is far superior to 16.1 v 14). Infantry are even worse for agg.

Agg is a one trick pony, and it is not particularly good at that one trick. As a dedicated warmonger trait, Cha owns it silly.

 

[UncleJJ]

Agg is a one trick pony, and it is not particularly good at that one trick. As a dedicated warmonger trait, Cha owns it silly.

Complete and utter non sense. One word destroys everything you've written and that is "Drafting". Have you ever done it? Have you ever played your game with that as the main means of raising your troops? Because I have, and Aggressive is much better than Charismatic for drafting.

What you say about seige getting their third promotion at 8 exp rather than 10 exp is the only substantial advantage Charismatic has but that is trivial. I have no problem sequencing my seige attackers such that I get plenty of CR3 cannons or whatever.

Charismatic is good for getting highly promoted troops but most of those are a luxury, the key promotions can all be gained with 10 exp for the vast bulk of troops. Aggressive is good for drafting out 50 muskets and 90 rifles (over several drafting cycles) all with 2 promotions and with a few trebuchets and a lot of cannons the continent is yours. Get some galleons and go visit the neighbours...

 

[popejubal]

Complete and utter non sense. One word destroys everything you've written and that is "Drafting". Have you ever done it? Have you ever played your game with that as the main means of raising your troops? Because I have, and Aggressive is much better than Charismatic for drafting.

I know that people swear by Drafting as a primary means to expand your empire, but I've never been able to make it happen for me because of the enormous that goes with it. Are there any tips/articles that are worthwhile for running a successful draft? I know that there are lots of articles, but I'm specifically looking for good ones.

 

[Alrin Kharr]

I know that people swear by Drafting as a primary means to expand your empire, but I've never been able to make it happen for me because of the enormous that goes with it. Are there any tips/articles that are worthwhile for running a successful draft? I know that there are lots of articles, but I'm specifically looking for good ones.

To put it simply: Globe Theater abuse.

Step 1: Find a city site with a good amount of food.
Step 2: Build the Globe Theater there.
Step 3: Draft troops en masse from this city, drafting from other cities as your happy cap allows.
Step 4: KILL KILL KILL KILL

There are some in-depth number crunches out there for maximizing the output of your Globe Theater city, as well as how to optimize drafting in non-GT cities, but that's the central idea in a nutshell.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The easiest way to abuse drafting is to simply build theater/coliseum in relevant cities, and use the slider. The short terms costs of this are nothing to bear if you get enough cities as a result.

 

[Artichoker]

What you say about seige getting their third promotion at 8 exp rather than 10 exp is the only substantial advantage Charismatic has but that is trivial. I have no problem sequencing my seige attackers such that I get plenty of CR3 cannons or whatever.

This is what I forgot to mention earlier, but it's true. The important thing to note is the huge difference between Catapults and Cannons.

In a typical Classical or Medieval war, mass-produced units have 5 XP from Barracks+2 (except for the very few cities that have settled GGs...but at this early stage of the game you still need to worry about Medic III general).

This puts both Cha and non-Cha at level 3. The advantage of Cha here is that the units need only 3 XP more, compared to 5 XP for non-Cha. However, if they are Catapults, they gain 1 XP max per successful battle.

Now, we all know that in early wars Catapults are mostly sacrificial, and having 25% survival rates or lower is the reality. Since it requires 3 battles to get to CR3, it's not very likely they will survive to get there. Even if you give priority to higher-XP units...for example, let's say for the 2nd battle you have 40% survival and the 3rd battle 55% survival, that's still only a combined survival rate of 0.25*0.40*0.55 = 5.5%.

Now, Cannons are an entirely different story, as you can typically have odds in the 80s or above...but that is too far down the tech tree to consider for early wars. In this case, however, you can often lighten the load off your Cannons by attacking with Grenadiers instead. The free CI from Aggressive helps significantly here.

Charismatic is good for getting highly promoted troops but most of those are a luxury, the key promotions can all be gained with 10 exp for the vast bulk of troops. Aggressive is good for drafting out 50 muskets and 90 rifles (over several drafting cycles) all with 2 promotions and with a few trebuchets and a lot of cannons the continent is yours. Get some galleons and go visit the neighbours...

Aggressive is indeed good for drafting. I don't use it heavily myself, but I always target a time for starting a Golden Age and do max drafting over 8 turns.

Once you get Astronomy, monuments become obsolete and Charismatic provides only +1 happiness.

 

[UncleJJ]

Now, we all know that in early wars Catapults are mostly sacrificial, and having 25% survival rates or lower is the reality. Since it requires 3 battles to get to CR3, it's not very likely they will survive to get there. Even if you give priority to higher-XP units...for example, let's say for the 2nd battle you have 40% survival and the 3rd battle 55% survival, that's still only a combined survival rate of 0.25*0.40*0.55 = 5.5%.

Catapults are indeed sacrificial once longbows arrive, they reduce defences and die. Charismatic won't help there much. Trebuchets survive better and I often get 2 or 3 of those to CR3 against longbows. I often don't put my best trebuchet against the best defender but use a new 5 exp CR2 newbie trebuchet with say a 60% chance. Win or lose he'll dent all but the best defender and survives 60% of the time although only with a sliver of life. After that opening shot the real seige assualt begins with my best against their damaged and I seldom lose a good trebuchet. Charismatic will get a nice advantage of CR3 trebs at only 8 exp while a non Charismatic has to get 10 exp. Points after 10 are usually wasted as higher promotions don't do much for trebs with the CR promotions

Now, Cannons are an entirely different story, as you can typically have odds in the 80s or above...but that is too far down the tech tree to consider for early wars. In this case, however, you can often lighten the load off your Cannons by attacking with Grenadiers instead. The free CI from Aggressive helps significantly here.

With an Aggressive civ my SoD at the time of cannons will typically have pikemen, CR macemen, draft muskets and grenadiers (upgraded maces and new build guerilla, CG and woodman types) and then once rifling is researched draft rifles and upgraded rifles (maces and longbows). Early on the bulk of the SoD and all the garrison troops in new cities will be drafted muskets. The amount of hammers saved by drafting is staggering, I'm getting a draft musket (80 hammers) or rifle (110 hammers) for a mere 15 food.

Aggressive is indeed good for drafting. I don't use it heavily myself, but I always target a time for starting a Golden Age and do max drafting over 8 turns.

I have never understood your drafting method It seems completely wrong to me. You draft in a golden age something I (almost) never do. I don't whip during a golden age either, it is a time to maximise outputs of commerce, hammer tiles and GPPs, so I don't work food tiles unnecessarily to grow and don't lose pop, if anything I starve the cities to maximise outputs. At the end of the golden age I switch to Nationhood and Slavery, then I start turning food into hammers and working food tiles to regrow the lost pop.

My favourite method to prepare for Nationhood is something like this. Win the Liberalism race and take Nationalism, now research Constitution and trade (Paper, Philosophy, or Education) for Machinery, Theocracy and Engineering. Build Taj Mahal in best city and now I build /whip castles (where appropriate) and trebuchets, pikes and start spreading what will be my state religion (if not already decided, preferring the AP one if I have it). Once Constitution is complete switch to researching Gunpowder, then Chemistry followed by Steel.

Once Taj Mahal is complete switch civics to Rep, Caste System and Pacifism (or OR) and start building jails everywhere. On the last turn of the golden age switch to Rep, Nationhood, Slavery and Theocracy. Start drafting in most cities possibly not big ones. Combine drafting with whipping either jails or trebuchets. I will now have an impressive SoD (for the time) of trebuchets (10 say), muskets (15), maces(5) and pikes plus older troops from earlier wars. What is more devastating and completely different from Artichokers method, is that my 12 cities can draft another 10 muskets every 10 turns plus build and whip a load of other troops. If necessary I'll stay in Nationhood for 50 turns and draft muskets and eventually rifles.

Spare food is used to run spy specialists so EPs are being produced at a huge rate (for the time) with jails and Nationhood giving 75% multiplier and a few big cities will have a castle as well. Now is the time I will sink some commerce into EPs as well as beakers, but I also want Chemistry and Steel so it is a fine balance. The EPs will be targetted on AIs that I intend to attack so I can see what they have in their cities. If they have techs to steal then more EPs are invested for that.

The exact moment when I attack a neighbour depends on many things but not usually during the golden age unless there is a massive advantage or I'm drawn into a war by diplomacy. I like the combination of trebuchets and early drafted muskets. Most people think muskets are rubbish and if you build them with 80 hammers I tend to agree, but when you only pay 15 food for a drafted one (from a size six city) they are good value especially when used en masse . Of course Aggressive and Protective draft muskets have special advantages along with janissaries, musketeers and oromo warriors. For muskets to be effective they need to be used early and drafted repeatedly over several drafting cycles.

 

[pi-r8]

@skallgrimson-




AGG is not only like having a free GG in every city, it also pays big dividends when shooting for high-promo units like commando (which really has to be tried to see just how good it is).

What do you do with the commando units? Don't you find it difficult to take cities with them, since you can't bring siege with them? Or do you just focus on coastal cities plus naval bombardment?

 

[Kesshi]

pi-r8,

Commando opens up a lot of options. With it you can:

Chase down Workers
Pillage key improvements
Pick off reinforcements in the field (before they get to a city)
Remove trade routes (If you can get Commando early enough)
Scout ahead so you know what to expect

I'm sure others can think of more, as these are just off the top of my head.

 

[pi-r8]

hmm... but don't you lose a lot of units doing that? I mean it sounds like you're just scattering isolated units through their territory. I think I'd rather form a stack and take a city.