The Big Question - How Does The AI Choose Which Units To Build?

[Ozymandias]

1. Neomega, did you give your artillery ZOCs?

2. I'm beginning to suspect that the interlocking nature of the AI's build algorithms produces essentially unpredictable "chaos" in how many and what types of ship are built -- i.e., IIRC I've only encountered one AI aircraft carrier, but it was loaded, unexpected, and deadly ... but just once ... And nearly every story I hear about how the AI builds ships seems contradictory to the tale before ... Hopefully the new Conquests Civ attribute -- Naval? Maritime? -- means that the AI's been tweaked a bit in this department; I know, dream on ...

-Oz

 

[Rocoteh]

Very interesting that it not were on Earth maps.

AI must regard Europa+Asia+Africa as 1 supercontinent.
America also a supercontinent. 2 supercontinents +
Australia in the "eyes" of AI.

When I restart my personal mod I will create an
"early Suez channel" and an "early Panama channel".
Maybe that will increase naval production.


Rocoteh

 

[Belial]

Regarding use of the artillery, they did bombard in a particular order, nearest tile to their border or perhaps, nearest tile to the located stack of artillery (around 18 or so). They had no means to transport them to their home location and they also did defend the stack.

In my belief, the AI is programmed how to use the artillery, it just does not build and ship them out in an offensive manner.

If that was one of my core cities that got 'massively' bombarded like that, that city would have been crippled.

I've also seen artillery bomb ships numerous times, but not sure if I have seem them use it against troops mainly because by the time something of range can hit my stack, they can take the city without ever being in range.

Somehow, I think I remember where I had units bombarded by a cannon before they reached, but not entirely sure.

Anyhow, I'll keep contributing to the thread, as soon as the AI is cracked, then it's only a matter of time to give better ideas on how to properly get the AI to make a recognizeable force, especially in mod making.

 

[Neomega]

Originally posted by ozymandias
1. Neomega, did you give your artillery ZOCs?

-Oz

Standard rules, ZoC is probably a good idea to give to AI artillery, then when you move past a city it will seem like they are bomabarding you.....

I requested a special flag in conquests for AI and player only units... not sure if it is going to happen though....

 

[Rocoteh]

I think artillery and air-units are programmed with
high priority to attack infrastructure.
(Well, a large part of artillery seems to be programmed
to sit in cities).

I really hope we will see a change in Conquests
with regard to that.

Edit: Artillery have ZOC in ACW. It has no effect.
I will ask the others in the team if they have seen
any effect.

Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
Edit: Artillery have ZOC in ACW. It has no effect.
I will ask the others in the team if they have seen
any effect.

So artillery with range 1+ did NOTHING when an enemy unit entered it's ZOC!?!?

,

Oz

 

[Rocoteh]

The answer from The Last Conformist is:
"a couple of times".

I have never seen it.

Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
The answer from The Last Conformist is:
"a couple of times".

I have never seen it.

Rocoteh

... Right ... Silly me ... After, all why would the AI waste its CPU cycle time taking absolutely free shots at enemy units?

,

Oz

 

[Rocoteh]

....I maybe wrong on this...

....but I do not think I am:

Many mod-makers make a great mistake when they
create dual-cap. units (units with attack,defense and
bombardment factors) and are spending time thinking
how many shields such units should cost.

Its like giving a rifle to a rabbit and then start to
analyse how the rabbit will use it.

AI simply can not use dual-cap. units.


Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
....I maybe wrong on this...

....but I do not think I am:

Many mod-makers make a great mistake when they
create dual-cap. units (units with attack,defense and
bombardment factors) and are spending time thinking
how many shields such units should cost.

Its like giving a rifle to a rabbit and then start to
analyse how the rabbit will use it.

AI simply can not use dual-cap. units.

Rocoteh

Hi Rocoteh,

So, more good news from the front, huh?

I agree with you re: having a unit which is both bombard and "regular" AF/DF -- with the IMHO unimportant cavet that the AI might simply be flagging these akin to how it flags units which are both O/D -- some are O, soem are D, etc.; in our case maybe some are Bombard and some are Regular Combat units? -- Again, I don't think it makes much difference, as the entire point of building such dual-purpose units will have been lost.

I'm beginning to think that pre-WW1 scenarios should only (mostly?) have Bombard Range "0" and just be that much fiercer on the defense ...

Now, on the other hand, I'm assuming that the AI CAN handle other dual cap units -- units flagged e.g. Amphibious and Paratroop; Artillery and Paratroop; etc. -- Yes / No / Maybe? (I'm a bit disconcerted that nobody answered my question re: the brief pre-PTW flurry of paradrop /MF=0 units; from the silence, I can only presume that their attempted implementation was something of a failure.)

*sigh* I was planning on updating the URL library this weekend (some 20+ new URLs to add ) yet I think I might get distracted by more thoughts along trying to "decipher" the AI's workings -- AT LEAST maybe put up a new thread / poll something asking questions re: modders' experiences; I'm further dismayed that so few modders have chimed in in this forum -- unless, of course, my "limited & balanced force pool theory" holds true and most modders aren't straying too far from that mark ...

Bemusedly Yours,

Oz

 

[Louis XXIV]

Wow, I just read this entire thread and I realized that you guys haven't really gotten much closer to your goal of figuring out why the AI builds which units, you seem to be moving parallel

Rocoteh, Re ZOC for Artillery units:

Did the Artillery have an attack value? I figure that it can't take its free shot if it has an attack of 0. If you give it attack, but no defense I assume the AI will not use it to attack (no logic there, but it makes sense considering they won't let you flag it as offense).

 

[Neomega]

There is nothing wrong with giving units bombard ability, as long as you do not flag them as such. In other words an offensive unit with innate bombard power is fine, in fact it is probably the only way AI will use artillery to any effect, and that is in a defensvie manner.

 

[Rocoteh]

Louis XXIV,

No the Artillery did not have an attack value but the
The Last Conformist saw it firing "a couple of times".
We have infantry units with dual. cap and ZOC and
they very seldom do any damage. I have done my own
experiments with such units and I say: AI can not
handle them.

With regard to "you seem to be moving parallel". Louis XXIV

That is possible, but at least we try to do someting!

ozymandias,

I will not abstain from adding new units to
my personal mod, even if AI can not handle them
all.


Rocoteh

 

[Louis XXIV]

That is possible, but at least we try to do someting!!!

And I'm glad you do try. You've now proven that the AI is stupid

In all seriousness, keep up the good work. You might make a breakthrough.

 

[Rocoteh]

"I'm beginning to think that pre-WW1 scenarios should only (mostly?) have Bombard Range "0" and just be that much fiercer on the defense ..." ozymandias

I have tested that: Infantry with Range 0 and Bombard 100
were not more effective than infantry with Range 0 and
Bombard 10.

Rocoteh

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
I have tested that: Infantry with Range 0 and Bombard 100
were not more effective than infantry with Range 0 and
Bombard 10.

Hmmm....not quite true Rocoteh.
Although units with a 'defensive bombardment' will only cause ONE hit point loss upon their attackers, no matter what their 'rate-of-fire' is set at, the higher their bombardment factior then the higher their chance of actually succeeding in getting that one hit point loss.
See this thread:-
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63102&highlight=bombard

So, Catapults, Cannons, Artillery, Radar Artilley, Battleships, etc, will all cause just one hit point loss when defending in a stack....but Catapults with their bombarment of 4 will mostly miss if attacked by say Mech Inf with their defence of 18, while the Radar Artillery's bombardment of 16 will get that hit about 50% of the time.
(It's not much I admit.....but it's better than nothing. )

 

[Rocoteh]

"Hmmm....not quite true Rocoteh.
Although units with a 'defensive bombardment' will only cause ONE hit point loss upon their attackers, no matter what their 'rate-of-fire' is set at, the higher their bombardment factior then the higher their chance of actually succeeding in getting that one hit point loss" Kryten


Kryten,

I should appreciate if you check out ACW-thread,
page 40, post 795.
It would be interesting to hear your comment on that.


Rocoteh

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Rocoteh

ozymandias,

I will not abstain from adding new units to
my personal mod, even if AI can not handle them
all.


Rocoteh

My Dear Rocoteh!

I would NEVER suggest you or anyone else do such a thing! -- I know I won't ...

All The Best,

Oz

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Wow, I just read this entire thread and I realized that you guys haven't really gotten much closer to your goal of figuring out why the AI builds which units, you seem to be moving parallel

Yes, I believe in the military it's called "parallel lines of advance" .

Seriously, though, that's been part of the point -- the ol' Scienterrific Method, intelligently gnawing at the same problem from different angles -- with certainly Rocoteh and I coming up with the same results!

Abraxas,

Oz

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Neomega
There is nothing wrong with giving units bombard ability, as long as you do not flag them as such. In other words an offensive unit with innate bombard power is fine, in fact it is probably the only way AI will use artillery to any effect, and that is in a defensvie manner.

Hi Neomega,

Glad to see you jump in here! -- I think Pentagenesis is a blast .

BTW I've come to agree with you, and find it more than a little ironic that a unit has to be flagged "Offensive" to be used effectively in a "Defensive" manner.

C'est la guerre,

Oz