The British Empire

Rambuchan said:
As for Sati - I'm always sceptical of one nation trying to change anothers cultural habits.

O/T perhaps but I've always liked this story. Although I am a believer in cultural distinctiveness generally, when it comes to Sati there is this one anecdote I find rather amusing/telling from British India concerning General Charles James Napier when confronted by a group complaining about the prohibition of Sati.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

If the woman was expected to die to maintain a cultural tradition surely the men concerned should be too? Needless to say they weren't.
 
Hotpoint said:
O/T perhaps but I've always liked this story.....If the woman was expected to die to maintain a cultural tradition surely the men concerned should be too? Needless to say they weren't.
Sorry man but you're anecdote is a little topsy turvy. The point that it misses is that women did this themselves. There were no men throwing them on the funeral pyres. It was 'self inflicted'. Suicide. Not murder. Why? Because their men were dead. Sati only applies to widows. Any exceptions deserve to be hung IMO.
 
Rambuchan said:
Sorry man but you're anecdote is a little topsy turvy. The point that it misses is that women did this themselves. There were no men throwing them on the funeral pyres. It was 'self inflicted'. Suicide. Not murder. Why? Because their men were dead. Sati only applies to widows. Any exceptions deserve to be hung IMO.

Many of the widows were not volunteers, they were frequently pressurised or even drugged.

It might be worth noting too that the British actually allowed voluntary Sati for quite a while (an insistance was made that Police Officers be present to verify the woman concerned was not being burned against their will).
 
Hotpoint said:
Many of the widows were not volunteers, they were frequently pressurised or even drugged.
I'm not disputing this. I'd be really surprised if it was ALL voluntary. But those drugged cases will be in the minority I bet. Got some nice sources on this handy? I read about all this a while back, even shot stills and wrote an article for it years back for a glossy mag. However all my sources for that were library books, so I can't exactly reach for them now.
Hotpoint said:
It might be worth noting too that the British actually allowed voluntary Sati for quite a while (an insistance was made that Police Officers be present to verify the woman concerned was not being burned against their will).
Yes there were some very interesting situations which resulted from these cultural differences. I have actually read quite a few excellent articles on the Indian Police in the British Raj. One aspect of this which comes to mind is of how fingerprinting was a technique developed by Indian Police men then Scotland yard happily took the credit.

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jan102005/185.pdf

I think this PDF deals with it but a search for "Indian Police History Fingerprinting" brings up much more. There are many other fascinating aspects of the British Raj's police force trying to turn Hindu caste ideals to their favour by accepting, fabricating in some cases, notions of low caste individuals being borne into a life of crime. The most prominent of these is the case of "The Thuggees" (where we get the word 'thug' from today). A lot of this was hotly debated even within the Indian community. It was, mroe significantly, a demonstration of the British drive 'to win Hindu hearts and minds' to counter a rising Muslim identity and resistance (in turn spurred by the conflict with their Muslim brothers - the Ottomans). This is the stirrings of partition in action.
 
Rambuchan said:
The British Empire put many people's lives at stake. I don't think it as simple as saving lives. It's about imprinting your cultural habits and beliefs on another.
The original impulse for the frenzied British occupation of India was driven by the officials and officers of the British East India Co so that they could participate in the lucrative looting and 'gifts' fr Indian rulers. Even lowly clerks received enough to retire comfortably back in England, after a few years East. Robert Clive himself made millions I had read.

It was only later that some better British leadership arrived, after the age of easy looting was more or less finished, and the British had to actually administrate India more fervently to retain its profitability. Even that is a question-mark.

:p
 
Quite right K-D. That chap Thomas "Diamond" Pitt is the best example of this I know. I've mentioned him here before as he exemplifies this mercenary, absconder profile.
Thomas Pitt, the East India merchant and Governor at Madras, often called 'Diamond Pitt,' was born at Blandford Forum in Dorset on 5th July 1653. He was second son of John Pitt, Rector of Blandford St. Mary, and of Sarah, daughter of John Jay. In his youth, he appears to have been at sea and he is repeatedly styled 'captain' in his earlier days. Even before he was twenty-one, he engaged in the East India trade as an interloper, that is as a merchant not authorised to trade by the East India Company.

Plenty more here:
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/tpitt.html
And he had a famous son, who in turn had a famous son. Both called William.... ;)
 
Rambuchan said:
Dig deeper. Did Indian women ask them to do this? Did Indian men ask them to do this favour for the nation? No. As a result you had women, who believed their life was worth nothing after her husband's death, having that nothingness being dragged on in a miserable life. As much as I don't agree with the practise myself I'm never gpoing to tell someone not to. The simple point is - you, I and indeed the policy makers in the British Raj had absolutely no idea what it meant to those women to be denied that death. Incidentally, it is a tradition that arises to stop women being raped by victorious invaders. I wonder how many Anglo-Indians (mixed race) owe their lives to this abolition of 'sati'...

Meddling with other people's beliefs with some kind of benign benefactor role in mind is always going to cause trouble. So stick to the less subjective points for good.Again, just ask any Shia, Sunni or Kurd in Iraq that.

Oh, come on Rambuchan, you're not even being coherent here! If you think a practice is wrong, how can you condone its continuation? If you really think that those who run a country (legitimately or illegitimately) are doing wrong by stopping a practice like sati and by trying to change the attitude of the people towards that viewpoint, simply because it is cultural imperialism, then you surely have your priorities all screwed. Aren't you just saying that the preservation of a people's culture is more important than people's lives? And how could that be defensible? If you say that you're never going to stop someone else engaging in a practice that you don't approve of, would that extend to not stopping a murderer simply because you don't want to impose your views on him?

Now, you may have a point when you say that such interference generally has negative side effects (although I think you're going to have your work cut out to convince people that it's worse having a bunch of miserable widows than it is having a bunch of dead ones), but still, it's just perverse to deny that, other things being equal, India without sati was preferable to India with it.

It's also worth pointing out that there were plenty of reforming Indians themselves who wanted the practice stopped and who were very pleased that the British did it. Ram Mohan Roy springs to mind here.
 
Plotinus said:
Oh, come on Rambuchan, you're not even being coherent here! If you think a practice is wrong, how can you condone its continuation?

<snip>

Aren't you just saying that the preservation of a people's culture is more important than people's lives? And how could that be defensible? If you say that you're never going to stop someone else engaging in a practice that you don't approve of, would that extend to not stopping a murderer simply because you don't want to impose your views on him?

Now, you may have a point when you say that such interference generally has negative side effects (although I think you're going to have your work cut out to convince people that it's worse having a bunch of miserable widows than it is having a bunch of dead ones), but still, it's just perverse to deny that, other things being equal, India without sati was preferable to India with it.

It's also worth pointing out that there were plenty of reforming Indians themselves who wanted the practice stopped and who were very pleased that the British did it. Ram Mohan Roy springs to mind here.
Firstly, I believe there are three viewpoints to consider on this point. That of:

a) The British Imperialist's: The notion of civilising another people.
b) The Indian in Resistance: Priority is to get British out.
c) A 21st century individual in the western world today - ie. us two.

When I say that 'I wouldn't tell someone not to', I mean it from view point b). Whereas you are taking view c), which I come from also.

So why do I take this view here and now? Because the discussion is about the issue of sati within the context of the British Empire. If the discussion was about sati in general, well that is an entirely different matter. What I am trying to do is offer the counter view to British Imperial policy - whether I as an individual agree with it or not.

Also: I don't see why you should take the principles for or against sati and expand them so dramatically. Put it this way, I wrote a while ago in OT about Muharram and the Shia practise of 'motia', ie. self flagallation or redemptive suffering. There were men in front of me hacking their backs to pieces with knives on chains, all in memory of Hussain's assasination at Karbala. Now, with the knowledge of what such an activity meant to those people, I would not stop them. Yet if I saw a man gashing his arm with a knife on the streets of London I'd theoretically try and stop him in this self harm. The two activities mean entirely different things and call for entirely different actions.

So when I speak of Sati, I say so within the context of the discussion on British Imperial social policies and their subtexts. And also with the meaning of the act for those women in mind. Main points being context and empathy here.
Plot said:
If you really think that those who run a country (legitimately or illegitimately) are doing wrong by stopping a practice like sati and by trying to change the attitude of the people towards that viewpoint, simply because it is cultural imperialism, then you surely have your priorities all screwed.
Priorities from whose cultural point of view? Like I say, I'm trying to empathise here. If I take myself back to that time and society, I can understand those who would have rejected this cultural imperialism (the banning of sati) because such a view would have been an expression of rejection - of an illegitimate rule and of the entire British Project. Their priority was to get the British out. If they accepted the ban, they would have been accepting that British rule was in some way enlightened and worthy of embracing, in turn condoning British rule in India. Perhaps the ideal sequence of action from viewpoint b) would have been > get the British out > then get sati out. Because, quite simply Plot, ideals are fine as ideals in theory, but in application and purpose within such a context, having a clean cut conscience all the way isn't so easy, so helpful in the role of resistance, and therefore not so valid. It's a tough one this and a highly moot view but many in resistance around the world thorughout time would have followed a similar course.

So for the record:
Me as an individual now, not Hindu, not living in India, and with a different political situation over there; well I would campaign vehemently against sati. I would see eye to eye with Ram Mohan Roy should I meet him today.

Incidentally and ironically, Roy would have been referred to as a 'coconut' by resistors such as Tipu Sultan (who admittedly had a terrbile penchant for massacring Hindus). That's the view I am putting across here - the counter view to British Imperial rule.
 
A huge problem when it comes to distinguishing what's right and wrong in the world comes in the form of western bias. Just because we don't do it does not mean it shouldn't be done, as everyone has their own customs.

From a 21st Century viewpoint, yes, some of the things done in the past are indeed not nice to look back at, but within that you see the danger of the modern western bias - culture today is not the same as culture back then, and you cannot 'empathise' with people (assuming you're taking your own culture basis as the grounds to start with) when their attitudes and the everyday culture is different, no matter how similar you think it is.

Britain wasn't really in India to be nice people and help, and to think otherwise is, again, using 21st Century standards to look back. It was more colonialist attitudes than anything else that caused the 'cultural imperialism' in India. Consider it similar to a 'crusade' of kinds, removing what is undesireable and replacing it with what they want to see. A 'cultural purge' almost.
They simply stopped the practise because they found it barbaric and felt they were doing the country a favour too, but not out of pity for them... I feel that looking it in those terms makes it a lot easier to understand.
 
AxiomUk said:
A huge problem when it comes to distinguishing what's right and wrong in the world comes in the form of western bias. Just because we don't do it does not mean it shouldn't be done, as everyone has their own customs.

From a 21st Century viewpoint, yes, some of the things done in the past are indeed not nice to look back at, but within that you see the danger of the modern western bias - culture today is not the same as culture back then, and you cannot 'empathise' with people (assuming you're taking your own culture basis as the grounds to start with) when their attitudes and the everyday culture is different, no matter how similar you think it is.

Britain wasn't really in India to be nice people and help, and to think otherwise is, again, using 21st Century standards to look back. It was more colonialist attitudes than anything else that caused the 'cultural imperialism' in India. Consider it similar to a 'crusade' of kinds, removing what is undesireable and replacing it with what they want to see. A 'cultural purge' almost.
They simply stopped the practise because they found it barbaric and felt they were doing the country a favour too, but not out of pity for them... I feel that looking it in those terms makes it a lot easier to understand.

Yes, true. You see the British do this more then anyone too. Japan did it a little bit now and then with the Ainu and stuff, but the british did it more then anyone, and were the most destructive too culturally.

This is why you see other colonies created generally retain their own 'culture' or race to some degree, but in places like Australia, Canada and New Zealand you see the original culture become virtually extinct and the British forcefully making only 'their own' ways become even the least bit acceptable, if they had it their way, everyone who wasn't totally british would be sent to death and they would get all their land and money for their own use.

there's a reason God made them an Island race, lol.

One of the most prejudice races ever to exist, I tell ya...
 
Knight-Dragon said:
Even lowly clerks received enough to retire comfortably back in England, after a few years East. Robert Clive himself made millions I had read.
:p

Aye, Clive of India had a good retirement with all the money...


:mischief:





:lol:
 
Nyvin said:
Yes, true. You see the British do this more then anyone too. Japan did it a little bit now and then with the Ainu and stuff, but the british did it more then anyone, and were the most destructive too culturally.

This is why you see other colonies created generally retain their own 'culture' or race to some degree, but in places like Australia, Canada and New Zealand you see the original culture become virtually extinct and the British forcefully making only 'their own' ways become even the least bit acceptable, if they had it their way, everyone who wasn't totally british would be sent to death and they would get all their land and money for their own use.

there's a reason God made them an Island race, lol.

One of the most prejudice races ever to exist, I tell ya...

In a recent Economist survey (so I read), the countries that were the happiest in the world went as follows (AFAICR):
1. Australia
2.USA
3.Egypt
4.India
5.Britain
6.Canada

Notice the link(Egypt excepted)? We certainly had some sort of effect upon our Empire. Maybe we really did know best :mischief:
(I assume this survey was done before Australia lost the Ashes cricket series against us this summer. I am sure they have dropped down the list by now :) )
 
Mega Tsunami said:
Notice the link(Egypt excepted)? We certainly had some sort of effect upon our Empire. Maybe we really did know best :mischief:
(I assume this survey was done before Australia lost the Ashes cricket series against us this summer. I am sure they have dropped down the list by now :) )

How the hell do you 'rate happiness'? And I highly doubt the people of India are happier then the people of say luxemburg, so right off the bat I can tell you that survey is heavily flawed.
 
@Nyvin
It was a survey, so people were asked: Are you happy?
Being rich such as someone from Luxembourg does not necessarily a happy person make.
 
Statistical analysis of happiness isn't exactly easy. There's a lot of statistics that you COULD involve just in measuring how happy one person is (and STILL leave a lot of important details out), never mind an nation. I'd be interested in knowing how they measured the happiness myself, and even more so, how they contrasted these results with other countries.
 
Rambuchan said:
Firstly, I believe there are three viewpoints to consider on this point. That of:

a) The British Imperialist's: The notion of civilising another people.
b) The Indian in Resistance: Priority is to get British out.
c) A 21st century individual in the western world today - ie. us two.

When I say that 'I wouldn't tell someone not to', I mean it from view point b). Whereas you are taking view c), which I come from also.

So why do I take this view here and now? Because the discussion is about the issue of sati within the context of the British Empire. If the discussion was about sati in general, well that is an entirely different matter. What I am trying to do is offer the counter view to British Imperial policy - whether I as an individual agree with it or not.

Also: I don't see why you should take the principles for or against sati and expand them so dramatically. Put it this way, I wrote a while ago in OT about Muharram and the Shia practise of 'motia', ie. self flagallation or redemptive suffering. There were men in front of me hacking their backs to pieces with knives on chains, all in memory of Hussain's assasination at Karbala. Now, with the knowledge of what such an activity meant to those people, I would not stop them. Yet if I saw a man gashing his arm with a knife on the streets of London I'd theoretically try and stop him in this self harm. The two activities mean entirely different things and call for entirely different actions.

Fair enough, perhaps, but you've got to admit that flagellation and suicide are hardly on the same par, haven't you? I mean, it's one thing to say that you wouldn't stop someone cutting themselves within the appropriate cultural context, but quite another to say that you wouldn't stop someone burning themselves alive within the appropriate cultural context. I'm afraid that I just don't see that you can push cultural sensitivity that far. It's not some fundamental principle that justifies anything.

The Ram Man said:
If I take myself back to that time and society, I can understand those who would have rejected this cultural imperialism (the banning of sati) because such a view would have been an expression of rejection - of an illegitimate rule and of the entire British Project. Their priority was to get the British out. If they accepted the ban, they would have been accepting that British rule was in some way enlightened and worthy of embracing, in turn condoning British rule in India. Perhaps the ideal sequence of action from viewpoint b) would have been > get the British out > then get sati out. Because, quite simply Plot, ideals are fine as ideals in theory, but in application and purpose within such a context, having a clean cut conscience all the way isn't so easy, so helpful in the role of resistance, and therefore not so valid. It's a tough one this and a highly moot view but many in resistance around the world thorughout time would have followed a similar course.

But this is surely making one principle override all others even where it is clearly less important. Surely if you had been an Indian in the early nineteenth century who was opposed to the practice of sati and who was also opposed to British rule, you would think that the former was a more serious and pressing problem than the latter. Surely anyone who reasoned, "Well, sati is a terrible thing, but I'm buggered if I'm going to let the British, of all people, put a stop to it!" would have lost all sense of proportion. Yes, perhaps allowing the British to stop it would in some sense put a seal on their illegitimate rule, but surely that would be a price worth paying for the prevention of sati if you thought that practice was wrong. After all, how a country is governed is obviously more important than who does the governing, important though the latter may be; and if you think otherwise then you're just prioritising abstract principles over actual concrete reality. Aren't you?

This is why I don't think that your context (b) as indicated above is really one that any reasonable person can empathise with. I can empathise with an Indian in the early nineteenth century who wanted to get the British out, of course I can. But an Indian who wanted to get them out no matter what the cost? Well, that's a bit harder. That just looks like irrational fanaticism to me. I only empathise with the rational variety!
 
Do you refer to this, Mega Tsunami? http://www.guardian.co.uk/population/Story/0,2763,1353553,00.html
This is an article from guardian about a hapiness survey from The Economist,

It says:

1. Republic of Ireland
2. Switzerland
(Sweden, Italy, Denmark and Spain, all appeared in the top 10)
....
13. USA
........
25. France
26. Germany
....
29. UK
30. South Korea
...
60. China
....
105. Russia
...
111. Zimbabwe

So try to post your sources :rolleyes:
 
Here' s a review I did last yeat of Partha Chatterjee's The Nation and It's Fragments: Colonial and Postcolonial Histories. It's quite lengthy, but I think it outlines some interesting ideas relevant to this discussion. Footnotes have been removed for the sake of simplicity.

Partha Chatterjee has been acknowledged as one of India’s leading political philosophers. He is a member of the subaltern school &#8211; a branch of postcolonialism that follows an approach of looking at the non-elite in examining politics and history in former colonial countries. It should be remembered, however, that subaltern discourse does not simply negate the discourse of the colonisers. He is therefore concerned with issues such as gender, class and caste in his work. In The Nation and Its Fragments: Colonial and Postcolonial Histories (1993), Chatterjee examines the development of nationalism in India during the colonial and postcolonial periods.

It is difficult to apply a definition to the term, &#8220;postcolonialism&#8221;. In turning to The Encyclopedia of Historians and Historical Writing, we are told that &#8220;Postcolonialism is an elusive and contested term that refers to the multifaceted project of examining the complex and unequal relationships between European powers and their generally, though not exclusively, non-European subjects before and after formal political independence.&#8221; In essence, therefore, postcolonialism in history is about power structures and reclaiming power in the absence of colonial domination. This is a broad project. Indeed, there are a number of origins or theoretical foundations for postcolonial theory that have been put forward. Edward Said in Orientalism (1978) focused on deconstructing binaries such as us/them, modern/traditional, advanced/aboriginal, that had been put in place by colonisers. Given the complex relationship between colonisers and the colonised, we are told that rather than binaries, there is a hybrid relationship between these groups that can lead to new concepts. However, it has been noted that the term &#8220;post-colonialism&#8221; reorients discourse around another binary opposition: colonial/post-colonial. This approach cannot be universal - a view rapidly gaining ground in the discipline of postcolonial studies is that theories must be tied to specific geographical, social and historical conditions. While many issues such as nationalism, gender and language are raised in nearly every postcolonial context, how the issues are raised and the responses to them differ from region to region.

Partha Chatterjee sets out his goal in writing The Nation and Its Fragments in the preface to the book. He tells us that he seeks to see how the development of the concept of &#8220;the nation&#8221; has been influenced by a number of fields. The book can be broken into three parts. Chapters one to five trace the development of nationalism in India and show how this is reflected in and encouraged by contemporary historiography. Chapters six to nine look at the marginalised in Indian society and how nationalism impacted on them. Chapters ten and eleven look at the concept of the nation state and the communities within the nation.

Chapter one, called &#8220;Whose Imagined Country?&#8221; sets out the basic thesis for the book. Chatterjee writes, &#8220;By my reading, anticolonial nationalism creates its own domain of sovereignty within colonial society well before it begins its political battle with the imperial power. It does this by dividing the world into two domains &#8211; the material and the spiritual. The material is the domain of the &#8220;outside&#8221;, of the economy and of statecraft, of science and technology, a domain where the West has proved its superiority and the East has succumbed. In this domain, then, Western superiority had to be acknowledged and its accomplishments carefully studied and replicated. The spiritual, on the other hand, is an &#8220;inner&#8221; domain bearing the &#8220;essential&#8221; marks of cultural identity.&#8221; Chatterjee is apparently creating another binary set of opposing ideologies &#8211; material/spiritual. However, he tells us that his approach is much more subtle. His objective is &#8220;not only an identification of the discursive conditions that make such theories of Indian exceptionalism possible, but also a demonstration that the alleged exceptions actually inhere as forcibly suppressed elements even in the supposedly universal forms of the modern regime of power.&#8221; So Chatterjee is trying to show that out of the dichotomies he surveys, comes a synthesis of modern Indian nationalism.

Chapter two looks at the colonial state, Chatterjee tells us that while the motives of the colonisers came into question, the material benefits were not so hotly debated. &#8220;Indian nationalists are not, of course, quite so generous in attributing benevolent intentions to the colonial mission. But their judgment on the historical value of state institutions created under British rule is not fundamentally different.&#8221;

Chapters three to five, &#8220;The Nationalist Elite&#8221;, &#8220;The Nation and Its Pasts&#8221;, and &#8220;Histories and Nations&#8221; have been called by one reviewer, &#8220;the most brilliantly provocative and original chapters&#8221; of the book. Chatterjee in chapter three identifies the elite in Calcutta as being largely responsible for the nature of popular nationalism from the nineteenth century and into the twentieth. &#8220;It was [the Calcutta middle class] that constructed through a modern vernacular the new forms of public discourse, laid down new criteria of social responsibility, set new aesthetic and moral standards of judgment, and suffused with its spirit of nationalism, fashioned the new forms of political mobilization that were to have such a decisive impact on the political history of the province in the twentieth century.&#8221; He goes on to say that the colonial administration continued to subjugate the elite &#8211; not only by way of ideology, but also by force.

Chapter four, &#8220;The Nation and Its Pasts&#8221;, examines the development of historical scholarship in India. Histories of India written by outsiders were starting to be rejected, Chatterjee tells us, &#8220;It is, needless to say, a primary sign of the nationalist consciousness that it will not find its own voice in histories written by foreign rulers and that it will set out to write for itself the account of its own past.&#8221;

This theme is continued in Chapter five, &#8220;Histories and Nations&#8221;, where Chatterjee identifies history itself as a weapon in the nationalist struggle against colonial rule. He tells us that in the late nineteenth century, these were explicitly linked. &#8220;&#8230;in the 1880s, a number of Bengali writers were announcing quite openly that the struggle for an independent historiography and the struggle for independent nationhood were both to be waged against colonialism.&#8221;

The focus of the book then shifts to looking at the underprivileged in society and their place in forming Indian nationalism. Chatterjee looks at women, the peasantry, and the outcasts &#8211; in terms of the Hindu caste system. In the case of women’s place in Indian society, Chatterjee suggests that while there was significant protest in the middle of the nineteenth century over the treatment of women (for instance, the practice of sati &#8211; the immolation of widows on their husbands’ funeral pyres), by the late nineteenth century these protests had, to a large degree, been silenced. This was, according to Chatterjee, because the role of women had been subsumed into the sphere of spiritual nationalism &#8211; a part of the domestic sphere in the world/home dichotomy.

Chatterjee then surveys a vibrant peasant political culture and introduces another dichotomy &#8211; that of formal politics/peasant politics.

Chapter nine, &#8220;The Nation and Its Outcasts&#8221;, looks at the caste system. We see that Indian nationalists had adopted two approaches to dealing with the issue of caste. Some denied the idea that caste was an essential component in characterising Indian society. Others sought to maintain the system as an essential element of Indian society. Again, Chatterjee attempts to find some common ground between two apparently divergent threads. He argues that both accept the premise of modernity &#8211; one rejects caste as inconsistent with modern society, the other looks at caste as un-oppressive and allowing individuality to thrive.

In the penultimate chapter, Chatterjee looks at the emergence of India as a nation state. First, he charts the nature of economic planning in India in the years leading up to independence and beyond. He contrasts &#8220;rational&#8221; planning and &#8220;irrational&#8221; politics in a country conducting &#8220;passive revolution&#8221;. In the final chapter, &#8220;Communities and the Nation&#8221;, Chatterjee looks at the fuzzy concept of communities within India and how the struggle between community and capital will continue for the foreseeable future.

Chatterjee’s book is clever. Perhaps it is a little too clever. It is written for an academic audience that is grounded in the philosophies of G.W.F. Hegel and Antonio Gramsci. It can be dry and over-analytical in employing these philosophies &#8211; so the book is not a page-turner. On the other hand, Chatterjee’s thesis that Indian nationalism developed out of a spiritual rather than material sphere is, in itself, compelling. The reader does need a reasonable knowledge of Indian history in order to appreciate Chatterjee’s work (I found myself reaching for general works on Indian history on more than one occasion).

There is also a notable absence in Chatterjee’s work. While he illustrates Hindu/Indian nationalism well, Muslim/Pakistani nationalism is hardly discussed at all. This is troubling because Partition, and the communal violence surrounding it in 1947 (which included the partition of Chatterjee’s home province of Bengal into present-day Bangladesh), is one of the most important events in the history of nationalism on the subcontinent, ranking alongside the Mutiny of 1857. Not to mention the fact that Pakistan and India have gone to war (the most extreme manifestation of nationalism imaginable) against each-other several times since independence, and are both engaged in a nuclear standoff. While Chatterjee does discuss the Mutiny, he frames it as an aborted revolution (he refers to it as the &#8220;Great Revolt&#8221; ) &#8211; perhaps looking at the violence surrounding Partition would negate his insistence that the West is wrong in writing off nationalism as a bad thing. That said, the chapters on the place of history in the development of nationalism were especially good in emphasising the role that history and interpretations of history can play in the forming of a national consciousness. If the reader does not wish to get bogged down in theory, however, he or she may well wish to consider another text on the development of India and Indian national identity such as Judith M. Brown’s Modern India: The Origins of an Asian Democracy (1994).
 
Thorgalaeg said:
Do you refer to this, Mega Tsunami? http://www.guardian.co.uk/population/Story/0,2763,1353553,00.html
This is an article from guardian about a hapiness survey from The Economist,

It says:

1. Republic of Ireland
2. Switzerland
(Sweden, Italy, Denmark and Spain, all appeared in the top 10)
....
13. USA
........
25. France
26. Germany
....
29. UK
30. South Korea
...
60. China
....
105. Russia
...
111. Zimbabwe

So try to post your sources :rolleyes:

No, this is not it but I do not recall where it was I read it (a few weeks ago).
I said it was a suvey/questionnaire where people were asked if they were happy. Some of the happiest people I have come across on my travels lived in Zimbabwe (before Mugabe did too much damage, admittedly). If you do a load of calculations of income/health service etc. Zimbabwe would, as you showed, appear at the bottom. You can be poor and happy however.

I have done a bit of googling and the only reference I have found is
this
 
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