The Bull Reincarnate II

[cripp7]

I think we have a plan of action now! Sounds good to me

 

[huerfanista]

@ifinnem

Sounds good to me.

 

[ifinnem]

INPUT NEEDED - part of way into turnset

1) Trade options
Already got sailing for writing
a - We can get IW from Joao (he will throw in Med but not worth the WFYBTA)
I think this is a no brainer
b - We could do Alpha for Hunting with Bod for diplo (will get her to pleased and keep us safe from attack)
Should we do this one?

2) Settling plans (see pic below)
Having explored more there is a peninsula to the N (E of Bod). This land is nice
We could settle a blocking city to seal that for ourselves but risk losing the spicey clam site to Bod
If we go this route it may make sense to whip a settler in the cap to try get the spicey clam. Would not settle either till we see her coming
Votes?

Spoiler :

I will not play on till I hear from y'all

 

[huerfanista]

Yes to both.

 

[cripp7]

agree with huerfanista, I get that WFYBTA sometimes in my offline games. That's something I'm still learning about.

 

[huerfanista]

@ifinnem

If you haven't played yet, why not fit hunting in with the IW trade to Joao and then trade alpha to Boudi for archery? IMX, Joao is a pretty willing trader, so I'm not too worried about WTH-YABTA (this is monarch, after all). BTW, has Boudi adopted a religion yet?

EDIT: Also, wfyabta doesn't apply to civs in the bottom (half? third?) of the scoreboard - as of the last SS, that was Joao and us (depending on who else is out there, OFC).

 

[ifinnem]

Not played yet - busy packing up our house today so may be only tonight I get the report out

 

[cripp7]

no worries, understandable

 

[ifinnem]

@ifinnem

If you haven't played yet, why not fit hunting in with the IW trade to Joao and then trade alpha to Boudi for archery? IMX, Joao is a pretty willing trader, so I'm not too worried about WTH-YABTA (this is monarch, after all). BTW, has Boudi adopted a religion yet?

EDIT: Also, wfyabta doesn't apply to civs in the bottom (half? third?) of the scoreboard - as of the last SS, that was Joao and us (depending on who else is out there, OFC).

Yeah I'm a little out of touch with WFYBTA on Monarch
As far as the lower part of the scoreboard I think the techs you trade still count against the WFYBTA cap that each AI has, however an AI in the bottom half will still trade with you even if you are over their cap. (i.e. it does still reduce trading opportunities)
Anyone care to research and confirm?

 

[huerfanista]

Yeah I'm a little out of touch with WFYBTA on Monarch
As far as the lower part of the scoreboard I think the techs you trade still count against the WFYBTA cap that each AI has, however an AI in the bottom half will still trade with you even if you are over their cap. (i.e. it does still reduce trading opportunities)
Anyone care to research and confirm?

I believe that's correct. Here's the reference:

Mechanics of Technology Trading Limits

When

Friendly civs will never shun you for tech whoring.

Your potential trading partner will shun you when both of these conditions are met:

you or your trading partner are in the top half of the scoreboard (including dead civs).

and

the number of techs that your trading partner remembers that you have received from someone else exceeds the NoTechTradingThreshold of this trading partner.

iNoTechTradingThreshold is defined in CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml, and varies from leader to leader ( see below ). The units of this threshold is number of techs. This value is modified by the difficulty handicap defined in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml (100% boost on Settler, 20% boost on Deity).

from this article: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578

The iNoTechTradingThreshold numbers for the civs we know are
Pacal - 5
Boudi - 10
Joao - 15 (2nd only to Mansa!)

I believe on monarch these are increased by 50% (the scale goes form 100% on settler to 20% on deity), giving:
Pacal - 7
Boudi - 15
Joao - 22

There's also a 5% chance each turn that a leader will "forget" one of these trades, and the counter is reduced by 1 every time you enter a new era.

Since Pacal is our prime stealing target, I'm less worried about hitting his threshold. And if we stay in his religion, we'll get him to friendly so wfybta won't apply. Boudi and Joao both have pretty generous thresholds.

 

[ifinnem]

I believe that's correct. Here's the reference:


from this article: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578

The iNoTechTradingThreshold numbers for the civs we know are
Pacal - 5
Boudi - 10
Joao - 15 (2nd only to Mansa!)

I believe on monarch these are increased by 50% (the scale goes form 100% on settler to 20% on deity), giving:
Pacal - 7
Boudi - 15
Joao - 22

There's also a 5% chance each turn that a leader will "forget" one of these trades, and the counter is reduced by 1 every time you enter a new era.

Since Pacal is our prime stealing target, I'm less worried about hitting his threshold. And if we stay in his religion, we'll get him to friendly so wfybta won't apply. Boudi and Joao both have pretty generous thresholds.

Awesome, nice work!
I'll try the hunting + arch approach then - update to follow soonish

 

[ifinnem]

The BCs are rolling by

Here's the update from my set - fairly eventful

IHT - cancel cottage near PP and switch to farm

T122
Work lake for extra commerce w/o delaying settler
Send dog to explore Pascal's land as not need for CG atm

T123
Enough saved, slider to 100% alpha in 7

T126
Micro PP for max whip overflow

T127
Whip + chop into PP

T128
dog meets Louis WB on W side of our landmass

Notice a hindu mish heading for Mound - consider cancelling OB with Pascal to force mish to Bod but see that Bod/Pascal do not have OB. Realize I can skip the pole in Mound so cancel it and insert Gran (will save 11 )

Found Chaco (dye-rice etc.)

Decide not go directly into worker at PP w/o regrowing as with cow given to Chaco no real good tiles for PP to grow into

T130
Hindu spread in Mound

T132
Alpha in
No Worst Enemies yet so free to trade with anyone!
Trade Bod writing for Sailing

Spoiler :

Extra 1 on all our trade routes now

This was where I stopped and asked for input about the trades and settling

T133
Micro Chak for max whip overflow next turn (did some calcs and whipping into LH will give superfast regrowth plus extra commerce from lakes so makes most sense to me)

Trade Alpha to Joao for IW + Hunt
So we have Iron?

Spoiler :

Worker sent to mine that promptly

T134
Trade Alpha to Bod for Arch (gives us +2 - for what its worth alpha for hunting is +3)

Spoiler :

Whip Chak's lib
Move N most dog back towards our settler sitting on the blocking site
T137
Chaco grows - whip pole
Micro Chak to build LH at max speed

Messed up the worker micro - Forgot we had IW to farm rice for Chaco so wasted 1 turn on moving. Also sent a worker to chop for the blocking city only to realize we're not gonna found it yet - doh!

Overview of the known World
North

Spoiler :

Pascal

Spoiler :

Nothing new in the very South

Notes for next turnset
1) Worker on rice near blocking city should road back towards spicey clam
2) Check for a settler from Bod every turn - there is dog next to Tolosa to provide visibility
3) Keep the workboat near the cap in our borders as its not need for a fishboat yet and moving outside cost 1 in unit supply cost. We should also bring the dog from Pascal's land back to PP for CG and to save the current supply cost
4) Don't move the N dog away from the settler to explore - the WB up N can do that
5) The worker is chopping the forest near PP so I think with that you should be able to whip out the settler in 7 turns and rush to spicey clam
6) Chak is growing back real quick - add a sci spezie with each new pop point. You may need to switch from a lake to the plains mine for a few turns to manage the growth to size 7 in time with when the whip anger fades

Spoiler :

We need ~200 before we can max out and get currency so keep and eye on that as we are pulling in a cool 19 gpt and the moment

Questions
Chak next build - gran, arch, galley? I vote gran since we don't need the units urgently and they cost moola in upkeep
I recommend delaying the settling of the new cities for as long as poss, except for the gold city which will pay for itself
Lets spam workers to get Mound going as a good city then build some Swords to take the barb city

Good luck.
Please note I'm out of the country from Sat till Thursday (4/8). Hope to have internet there but if you don't hear from me till 4/9 you know why!

 

[huerfanista]

Worker sent to mine that promptly

Woot!!!

Very nice job. I'll look at the save and then post some ideas/comments. I think it's a good time to have some preliminary discussions about our tech path after currency.

And I heartily agree with this:

I recommend delaying the settling of the new cities for as long as poss, except for the gold city which will pay for itself
Lets spam workers to get Mound going as a good city then build some Swords to take the barb city

 

[huerfanista]

Some preliminary thoughts:

- We should open borders with Louis ASAP. Both he and Joao came from the west (seemingly - we'll know for sure once our WB up N explores a couple of turns further), and we don't know who we'll need OB with for further exploration. Louis doesn't have a religion yet, but if he gets one other than hindu he won't open borders due to religious hate (he'll get immediate -2 at least, and won't open borders at annoyed). Also, there's at least one civ that we can meet, presumably beyond them, which founded buddhism (Joao's religion, and the one most probable to spread to Louis, considering Pacal founded both hinduism and judaism).

- We need to consider whether to stay in hinduism, especially if either judaism or buddhism spreads to Boudi. Louis will likely not trade with us if we're hindu and he's either jewish or buddhist. There are pros and cons, to be sure:
...having the same religion as Pacal will make tech stealing cheaper.
...having same religion as Pacal will make it easy to get to friendly with him for unlimited tech trades.
...having a different religion from Boudi could invite a DOW (she will have border tension with us but not Pacal unless she settles more cities in the west) - we will get a -1 from her for different religion, which will move her to cautious. OTOH we'll get +3 if she adopts hinduism.
...having a different religion than Louis gets -2, Joao -1, so Joao is a lot more tolerant and we'll probably have no problem trading with him, and we're pretty much shielded from Joao/Louis/other in case of war if they all turn out to be to the west of Pacal (likely), especially if Boudi goes hindu (I wish she and Pacal would open borders with each other ).

- It will be 9 turns until the settler from PP can settle the spicy clam (includes current chop + 1 pop whip, too bad that city isn't at pop 4 but growing there first would not speed things up).

- It will be at least 12 turns until our N WB can get past Biberacte.

- In 4 turns we'll have enough to get currency in 17 turns at 100% unless we have to settle our new cities. Adding scientists in Cahokia will cut that down a bit. I'm worried about losing the spicy clam spot - I think Boudi will have another settler out soon and heading east seems like the logical choice for her (except for the fact that she's an AI so let's pray to the RNG gods for a little help).

- Boudi is heading for military - she already has HBR and is likely to go math> const. It may be worth trying to steal those from her, since engineering (for castles and +25% EP) - and therefore math, const - is a preferred tech for this variant. Hopefully we'll get a GSpy out of Cahokia (will take us to 32EP/turn).

- Getting some swords to that barb city up north is vital. Boudi's GWs are tailor-made to take that city, although it's unlikely that she'll have many at G3 for the hill attack and withdrawal bonus. Let's hope she doesn't send a big force so we can steal it after her units attack. I think we need at least 4 swords up there.

 

[ifinnem]

- We need to consider whether to stay in hinduism, especially if either judaism or buddhism spreads to Boudi.

No question we do not keep a diff religion from her unless we are ready for war (ie not soon)

- It will be 9 turns until the settler from PP can settle the spicy clam (includes current chop + 1 pop whip, too bad that city isn't at pop 4 but growing there first would not speed things up).

Isn't it 8 turns - 7*9=63 + 30 from chop + 12 already invested = 105 Enough for a 1 pop whip on the 8th turn.
Agree there is still big risk we lose spicey clam but nothing much we can do

 

[cripp7]

Good work getting all the exploring done! Since Boudi has writing now, hopefully Pascal will get Hindu spread there. Also glad iron was in the BFC, getting that barb city would be nice. Hopefully we won't lose the spice-clam, but we'll have to just see what happens.

stealing techs from boudi would help since she's heading down the warpath line, does she declare at pleased?

 

[huerfanista]

No question we do not keep a diff religion from her unless we are ready for war (ie not soon)

Agreed.

Isn't it 8 turns - 7*9=63 + 30 from chop + 12 already invested = 105 Enough for a 1 pop whip on the 8th turn.
Agree there is still big risk we lose spicey clam but nothing much we can do

Still takes another turn of movement to be able to settle (crack the whip on T8, settler comes out on T9 and move 3 tiles (crossing river loses 1 MP), moves 4 more on T10 and settles on T11).

We can micro this better:
PP takes cow from Chaco, switches to library, grow in 4. On T5 PP adds farm and switches back to settler (+13 per turn into settler), chop goes into settler (42), T6 settler is at 55, give cow back to Chaco and works farm (10 ), T7 settler is at 65 so whip, settler comes out on T8 and settles on T10. This only delays Chaco's growth by 2 turns and gains us 10 from working the cottage, gains 22 into the library in PP, and gets spicy clam settled a turn earlier.

I'm assuming we're settling 1W of the spice? Seems like the best spot to me.

Worker on the rice that's N of the spice moves to 1W of spice and starts roading back to Chaco. Worker on Chaco's rice starts roading to spice. Worker from Cahokia goes to Mound and starts roading to phant (if we have to switch out of hindu, we'll want that extra in the capital).

 

[ifinnem]

stealing techs from boudi would help since she's heading down the warpath line, does she declare at pleased?

Nope - thats why we gave her Alpha

 

[huerfanista]

Plan for the upcoming round:

Tech - Slider at 0 for 4 more turns to accumulate gold, then 100% to research currency. This should take roughly the entire round.

Cities - PP borrows cow for 5 turns, switching to a lighthouse until it reaches pop4 (4 turns), then back to settler for chop, whip for 2 pop ASAP (2 more turns) and move settler to spicy clam. Workers will road to spicy clam and then split into 2 groups - 2 workers to camp phant and road to Mound, 2 workers to rice in Chaco. Once the jumbo is camped in Mound the workers will build farms, giving priority to the N side of the city (strip away cover for invaders). After grainery and pole finish in Mound, will go barracks> swords (for barb city). The 2 new cities will not be settled unless one of Boudi's settling parties is spotted nearby. Forested plains hill N of spicy clam will be chopped in a pole if the city is settled, and work boat idling at Cahokia will be moved up for the clam. PP will build workers once the LH is done. Cahokia will work a scientist instead of a lake tile to stagnate a bit until whip anger cools, then grow to next pop and add another scientist to speed up gp production. Once grainery is done will build a couple of swords. Chaco will finish grainery and build a barracks> sword until at happy cap, then a worker (no whip here).

Exploration - WB up in the NE will continue trying to go around the NE peninsula (at least, I think it's a peninsula) and head back W to find Joao and Louis and the founder of buddhism (and others?). Dog in Mutal will be brought home to save cash.

Other - will open borders with Louis on the inherited turn in case we need to go through him for exploration. Will switch to NSR if Boudi adopts a different religion, but I'll probably wait until after the settler for spicy clam is done (I'm still paranoid about losing that spot ). If any interesting trades show up, I'll stop for input before proceeding. Will keep and eye on Pacal's research - he's currently on alpha - and maybe switch EPs to Boudi if he goes for something odd like theo (I'd rather steal HBR from Boudi, or math if she goes that way). Hopefully we'll get a GSpy as our next gp, we can do some damage with 32EP/turn once we have time to build some spies.

Any thoughts about trading Pacal for meditation before he finishes alpha? It will let us research PH next, which will reduce the cost of CoL, and it opens up the phil bulb after CoL. EDIT: Also let's us build temples to raise the cap and monasteries for the boost + culture.

EDIT: One other thought - IMO we should move the palace to Chaco at some point. It will reduce maintenance costs, since it's more centrally located, and it will reduce tech stealing costs to both Boudi and Pacal. Not gonna happen this turnset, but maybe once Chaco gets near happy cap and is working both hills + cow.

 

[ifinnem]

Overall plan sounds good.
Assume you will start running sci in chak ASAP

A few thoughts

I would not group the workers unless they are not going to forest/hill/jungle otherwise you just lose worker turns for movement.
The alternatives are
1) keep workers single
2) have other workers join only once a road is built

Any thoughts about trading Pacal for meditation before he finishes alpha? It will let us research PH next, which will reduce the cost of CoL, and it opens up the phil bulb after CoL. EDIT: Also let's us build temples to raise the cap and monasteries for the boost + culture.

In our case Priesthood + Med are ok but would not prioritize.
Nice idea to trade for Med once Pascal is nearly done with Alpha tho, since we'll get nothing from him otherwise.
Monarchy is more helpful than a temple, as 120 is a big investment unless you are spiritual. (ie could be 3 archers instead)

Monastery in capital is a good idea if we do get Med