The Carthage Thread

[BuchiTaton]

Tell that to the AP World curriculum

I dont find any open online quote from AP.
Would like to have some picture of the source material. Seriously if AP say this is a case worth of public complains.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

View attachment 675869
In his lecture my AP World Teacher said that after the Aztecs switched chief gods to Huitzolopoctli, the increase of human sacrifices went up which led to a decline in the Aztec population so much so that the neighboring tribes easily sided with the Spanish, but first thought of the conquistadors as wanting human sacrifices.

Then again he practices the same Christian denomination as the ones who had brutally conquered the Aztecs.

 

[Patine]

View attachment 675869
In his lecture my AP World Teacher said that after the Aztecs switched chief gods to Huitzolopoctli, the increase of human sacrifices went up which led to a decline in the Aztec population so much so that the neighboring tribes easily sided with the Spanish, but first thought of the conquistadors as wanting human sacrifices.

Then again he practices the same Christian denomination as the ones who had brutally conquered the Aztecs.

Switched to Huitzolopoctli? He was the one who was believed to give the prophecy to settle where the eagle on the cactus with a snake caught was found, and the one who told the Mexica to apply warrior prowess to defeat the complacent city-states in the region, as I've read. He was apparently their chief deity all along. Plus, Tenochtitlan was believed to have a lot more than 200 000 people when Cortes arrived. It was believed to be easily bigger in population than any European city at the time.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Switched to Huitzolopoctli? He was the one who was believed to give the prophecy to settle where the eagle on the cactus with a snake caught was found, and the one who told the Mexica to apply warrior prowess to defeat the complacent city-states in the region, as I've read. He was apparently their chief deity all along. Plus, Tenochtitlan was believed to have a lot more than 200 000 people when Cortes arrived. It was believed to be easily bigger in population than any European city at the time.

Then what was the AP class talking about?

 

[BuchiTaton]

View attachment 675869
In his lecture my AP World Teacher said that after the Aztecs switched chief gods to Huitzolopoctli, the increase of human sacrifices went up which led to a decline in the Aztec population so much so that the neighboring tribes easily sided with the Spanish, but first thought of the conquistadors as wanting human sacrifices.

Is the top attachment the picture bellow, or there is another file that do not open?

Some points:
1- Aztecs in the proper sense is a group of Nahua peoples that comes from Aztlán, being the Mexica the ones most people think were "the Aztecs". Huitzilopochtli was already the titular diety of the Mexica that prompted them to leave Aztlán and search for the sign of the place to found their own state, this place ended being a not very promising islet that they turned into the massive city of Tenochtitlán.
2- Huitzilopochtli was a warrior diety and Mexicas according to this also turned into feared warriors, with a very agressive expansive model that earned the hate of all their rivals and subjugated city-states (even some of their allies had reasons to turn againts them). Also their certainly took human sacrifice to new level in Mesoamerica but now is pretty much proved by mathematical models and archeological evidence that the numbers given by historical chronicles were grossly exagerated.
3- I am seriously surprise by the claim that the human sacrifice caused a decline of the "Aztec" population, first since the Mexica mostly take enemy captives as sacrifice victims, second since even the researches that prove the exageration of the numbers centered in the fact that the amount of population to sustain those numbers was not possible in the first place, forget the absurd of a state killing deliberately>50% of the regional population.
By the way when the population of the region declined in propoartion of >50% was with the Spanish conquest, mostly by diseases (not gonna do the same mistake to claim the Spanish were deliberately killing most of their new workforce).
There is also another significative earlier drop in the population of Mesoamerica at the transitions from Classic to Post-Classic eras, but it was mostly a climatic collapse with an associated massive migration of peoples from the arid north that aggravated the chaos, but this was before Aztecs.

Then again he practices the same Christian denomination as the ones who had brutally conquered the Aztecs.

Im not sure to understand what you mean with this part.

NOTE: About Tenochtitlan at 1519, it was technically bigger than any european city BUT Constantinople in the average estimates.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Is the top attachment the picture bellow, or there is another file that do not open?

Some points:
1- Aztecs in the proper sense is a group of Nahua peoples that comes from Aztlán, being the Mexica the ones most people think were "the Aztecs". Huitzilopochtli was already the titular diety of the Mexica that prompted them to leave Aztlán and search for the sign of the place to found their own state, this place ended being a not very promising islet that they turned into the massive city of Tenochtitlán.
2- Huitzilopochtli was a warrior diety and Mexicas according to this also turned into feared warriors, with a very agressive expansive model that earned the hate of all their rivals and subjugated city-states (even some of their allies had reasons to turn againts them). Also their certainly took human sacrifice to new level in Mesoamerica but now is pretty much proved by mathematical models and archeological evidence that the numbers given by historical chronicles were grossly exagerated.
3- I am seriously surprise by the claim that the human sacrifice caused a decline of the "Aztec" population, first since the Mexica mostly take enemy captives as sacrifice victims, second since even the researches that prove the exageration of the numbers centered in the fact that the amount of population to sustain those numbers was not possible in the first place, forget the absurd of a state killing deliberately>50% of the regional population.
By the way when the population of the region declined in propoartion of >50% was with the Spanish conquest, mostly by diseases (not gonna do the same mistake to claim the Spanish were deliberately killing most of their new workforce).
There is also another significative earlier drop in the population of Mesoamerica at the transitions from Classic to Post-Classic eras, but it was mostly a climatic collapse with an associated massive migration of peoples from the arid north that aggravated the chaos, but this was before Aztecs.

Thank you.

Im not sure to understand what you mean with this part.

NOTE: About Tenochtitlan at 1519, it was technically bigger than any european city BUT Constantinople in the average estimates.

He’s a Catholic

 

[Patine]

He’s a Catholic

What do you mean by this response, exactly?

 

[Caesar of Bread]

What do you mean by this response, exactly?

He may be biased towards people of his own denomination.

 

[Patine]

He may be biased towards people of his own denomination.

Such bias cannot be assumed, or mentioned fairly as a factor, by default. Actual evidence of such a bias is required for such a thing to even be credible to bring up.

 

[Patine]

He may be biased towards people of his own denomination.

And brutal conquest, slaughter, and horrible atrocities are not part of Christian doctrines or teaching from their actual source and the message they convey - in fact, they are done in violation of such teachings, and then using a hypocritcal and contrived statement of hypocricy to claim defense of their so-called virtue. But, then again, most religions and even secular ideologies have those who do the same all the time, too, don't they?

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Oh well i guess i have been possibly tripping out in history class.

Have I been hearing stuff?

 

[Patine]

Oh well i guess i have been possibly tripping out in history class.

Have I been hearing stuff?

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I remember him saying the Aztec population declined after some sort of increase in human sacrifice

 

[Patine]

I remember him saying the Aztec population declined after some sort of increase in human sacrifice

Well, I've never met your teacher, so I can't say. But I had a Social Studies teacher in Grade 10 who blatantly stated 3 or 4 different and unrelated statements that I knew were overtly false, and when I brought up to correct them, she said told me flat out I was wrong. But that was back in 1992, when I'd have to photocopy the facts from hardcopy books in the library to show a counter-case.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, I've never met your teacher, so I can't say. But I had a Social Studies teacher in Grade 10 who blatantly stated 3 or 4 different and unrelated statements that I knew were overtly false, and when I brought up to correct them, she said told me flat out I was wrong. But that was back in 1992, when I'd have to photocopy the facts from hardcopy books in the library to show a counter-case.

Unfortunately, in the US education system, subject knowledge has been reduced in importance since long before 1992. A good friend of mine taught at the university level teaching people who were supposed to go on to teach English and ESL (English As a Second Language) in secondary schools. She frequently held forth at length on the appalling lack of knowledge of English among her students, who would nevertheless go on to graduate and teach as long as they could spout the latest set of buzzwords from the education establishment on Methods of Teaching and educational pedagogery. The emphasis for at least the past half-century has been on Method, not Content, in the educational 'establishment'.

When I started college I was planning to become a history teacher in th secondary school system. Three months' of substitute teaching and exposure to the College of Education at the university was enough to completely cure me of that notion. Years later at the US Army's Artillery School at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, I took a 2-week Instructor Training Course to prepare me to be an instructor at the school. That course concentrated entirely on how efficiently to impart information and everything emphasized the instructor's thorough knowledge of the subject matter before all else. I learned more about effective teaching in those two weeks than I did from a half-dozen CFE (Cultural Foundations of Education) courses at University from the College of Education, which were uniformly worthless at teaching the actual techniques of getting knowledge into students and keeping it there.

 

[Patine]

Unfortunately, in the US education system, subject knowledge has been reduced in importance since long before 1992. A good friend of mine taught at the university level teaching people who were supposed to go on to teach English and ESL (English As a Second Language) in secondary schools. She frequently held forth at length on the appalling lack of knowledge of English among her students, who would nevertheless go on to graduate and teach as long as they could spout the latest set of buzzwords from the education establishment on Methods of Teaching and educational pedagogery. The emphasis for at least the past half-century has been on Method, not Content, in the educational 'establishment'.

When I started college I was planning to become a history teacher in th secondary school system. Three months' of substitute teaching and exposure to the College of Education at the university was enough to completely cure me of that notion. Years later at the US Army's Artillery School at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, I took a 2-week Instructor Training Course to prepare me to be an instructor at the school. That course concentrated entirely on how efficiently to impart information and everything emphasized the instructor's thorough knowledge of the subject matter before all else. I learned more about effective teaching in those two weeks than I did from a half-dozen CFE (Cultural Foundations of Education) courses at University from the College of Education, which were uniformly worthless at teaching the actual techniques of getting knowledge into students and keeping it there.

Though I went to high school in Canada (and still live up here), which has ranked higher in educational quality in global stats for a very long time.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

That's nice that neither Bireme nor Quinquereme are mentioned. since BOTH are common polyreme warships used also by everybody in the Mediterranean sea. Not just Phoenicians/ Carthaginians.
Even Bireme serves TWO functions and exists in a different models and cofigurations. one 'light' bireme is for scoutings (and also piracy), the other 'heavy' variant is.. .of course... warships, that serves alongside Trireme and Quadrireme as shock units, while quinquereme is a heavy choice (this should be the first naval ranged unit instead.)

Roman Ships - From SPQR to the Imperium

An overview of the ships used by the Romans, either civilian or military, from the Corbita to the Quinquereme, the Punic war to the Empire.

naval-encyclopedia.com

The Roman Fleet traditionally consisted of four types of major units, the smallest being special, the so-called “naval dust”, the light Romanized Triconteres, Diconteres and Pentaconteres of liaison and recce. As shock units, one found the Biremes, Triremes, Quadriremes. The Quinqueremes, very heavy, were also engaged in large numbers almost as ships of the line. “aphraktoi” in the Greek sense, with full deck ready to receive plenty of troops and siege engines, they were isolated heavy units as Octeres and Deceres (Romanized in “Deciremus” for example) were pretty rare and also never mentioned. The latter possessed ten rowers for each section in principle, probably distributed over three rows, four top, three middle and three low.

 

[pokiehl]

That's nice that neither Bireme nor Quinquereme are mentioned. since BOTH are common polyreme warships used also by everybody in the Mediterranean sea. Not just Phoenicians/ Carthaginians.
Even Bireme serves TWO functions and exists in a different models and cofigurations. one 'light' bireme is for scoutings (and also piracy), the other 'heavy' variant is.. .of course... warships, that serves alongside Trireme and Quadrireme as shock units, while quinquereme is a heavy choice (this should be the first naval ranged unit instead.)

Roman Ships - From SPQR to the Imperium

An overview of the ships used by the Romans, either civilian or military, from the Corbita to the Quinquereme, the Punic war to the Empire.

naval-encyclopedia.com

The bireme is perfectly appropriate as a UU for a Phoenician civ. The Phoenicians invented it (and the trireme). They were prolific shipbuilders and sold many to others across the Mediterranean, which is partly why the bireme became ubiquitous.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The bireme is perfectly appropriate as a UU for a Phoenician civ. The Phoenicians invented it (and the trireme). They were prolific shipbuilders and sold many to others across the Mediterranean, which is partly why the bireme became ubiquitous.

Bireme as a Phoenician (city-states) invention is pretty solidly established, but the Trireme not so much: there is still on-going debate whether it was a (rather natural) development of the bireme by the Phoenicians or the Greeks, since it spread so fast that it largely replaced both monoremes and biremes as the standard warship all over the eastern Mediterranean and as far west as Carthage.

The fairly well-established origins of 'iconic' classical ships are:

Pentekonter ("50-oared") - the ultimate monoreme, mentioned by Homer in the Iliad and thus attributed to the Greeks
Bireme - archeological and written evidence attributes it to the Phoenician city-states of the Levant
Trireme - Either Phoenician or Greek, but whichever it was the other adopted it virtually instantly.
Quadrireme - invented around 400 BCE in the Ortygia workshop in Syracuse, the first of the larger-than-trireme Polyremes
Quinquereme - origins somewhat cloudy, but appeared within 50 years after the Quadrireme in Carthage and Greece and quickly replaced the Quads and other smaller ships because the Quinquereme was a strong and stable enough hull to mount small catapult bolt-throwers - the first real ship-borne 'artillery'
Deceres (or Decireme) - the largest Polyreme known to have been used in actual battle: at the culminating naval battle of Actium, the flagships of Anthony's, Cleopatra's, and Octavian's fleets were all Deciremes.
Liburnian - the 'classic' combination type: used both oars (bireme configuration) and sails, was invented by the Liburnii of the southern Dalmatian coast and adopted in various forms by pirates, Imperial Romans, and smugglers

 

[Shirotora Kenshin]

@Boris Gudenuf So the Quadrireme was developed in Syracuse?