The chariot archer problem

[Cajamarca]

Actually, this is more general than just the chariot archer. It includes:

Chariot archer
Horse archer
War chariot
War elephant
Camel Archer
Keshik (in particular)

The Gatling gun and machine gun were added to solve the problem of wasted promotions for archers and crossbowmen. But nothing was really done for ranged mounted units. Mongolian and Arabian chariot archers avoid this problem up until the Industrial era, but it's still an issue.

An even bigger issue: Who actually uses chariot archers?

Mongolia, with its +1 to mounted movement bonus, can use them the same way they use Keshiks, provided there's no difficult terrain. In fact, as Mongolia I often build chariot archers as a priority over horsemen in the early game.

Egypt's war chariot works the same way, but can't be upgraded without losing most of its promotions.

My solution to this is: don't build chariot archers unless I'm playing Genghis.

This kind of sucks, though. Chariots were a big deal in the ancient world.

Thoughts?

 

[Browd]

Well, after your first promotion, just prioritize promotions that mounted melee units will value, like cover, medic, etc.

 

[kirbdog]

Third promotion march, kind of makes up for the sucky first two.

Pretty sure medic is not a promotion for chariot archers.

 

[Novalia]

Yeah upgrading to knights is a huge buzz kill.

 

[Ninakoru]

Yeah it's a grave issue. Also happens when the machine gun upgrade is mech infantry. I sometimes play China dominion and end up someteimes with brutal machineguns, with range, double cover and health per turn, upgrading them to mech infantry is horrible.

There are lots of solutions, I don't get why firaxis didn't apply one of them:

- On upgrade change promotions to melee equivalents, and range for mobility.

- Upgrade path more based on attack type, machine gun -> rocket artillery, horse ranged -> Crossbowman.

- On this unit type change upgrades, leave all exp to re-promote the unit from zero.

On the other side, I love to upgrade lancers to helicopter with the damage per terrain promotions helicopters usually don't get ^^

 

[Matthew.]

Agreed with the above post.

Also, it is dreaming but I'd like to see something like a "light cavalry" line. Have chariot archer upgrade into something similar, which upgrades into lancer, then into something like a gun-mounted jeep, then the combat helicopter. Obviously the range->melee issue would still need to be fixed.

Have pikes just upgrade into muskets and anti-tank guns completely separate, like anti-air guns.

 

[Shadow717]

It can't be that hard to just code it so that Volley/Barrage switch to Shock/Drill when the unit changes class can it?

It also bothers me that when they went and added the MG and Gatling gun units specifically to eliminate this problem, they just had that line end at Mech. Infantry anway..... They couldn't come up with another ranged unit to follow the MG? Mortar teams sounded good to me, but alas we don't have them. Maybe that's what this rumored "bazooka" will be in BnW :/

 

[Biologist]

If I remember correctly, the Volley/Barrage promotions now provide combat bonuses to melee units when ranged units upgrade to melee. I seem to remember this happening during a recent game (no relevant mods), and I think this was discussed in another thread a while ago.

 

[dopingman]

About the MG's to Mechs, there is a certain logic behind it (alas it is Civ logic) as HMGs/support equipment was put into Infantry platoons especially if they are motorized or mechanized Infantry (which is represented by Mech Inf), instead of being used as heavy weapons support teams. The whole case of mechs meele attacking is the dumb thing about that, do they smash their APCs into each other or what?

I do support the idea of putting sth after MGs and Chariot Archers or to change their promotions/refund the XP after upgrading to another combat type

 

[IkM]

If I remember correctly, the Volley/Barrage promotions now provide combat bonuses to melee units when ranged units upgrade to melee. I seem to remember this happening during a recent game (no relevant mods), and I think this was discussed in another thread a while ago.

Yes, you are right.

I upgraded my Horse Archers to Knights and they still have 45% bonus (Accuracy III) in open terrain.

 

[Shadow717]

Yes, you are right.

I upgraded my Horse Archers to Knights and they still have 45% bonus (Accuracy III) in open terrain.

I could easily be wrong, I've never looked into it. However I think they might only work on attack, you don't get defensive bonuses from them. Maybe someone could check this?

 

[Matthew.]

So it is just a visual thing? I know the icon stays the same (ranged on knights), but haven't actually checked the combat. Been ages since I've seriously used chariots.

 

[mintcandy]

Actually, this is more general than just the chariot archer. It includes:

Chariot archer
Horse archer
War chariot
War elephant
Camel Archer
Keshik (in particular)

The Gatling gun and machine gun were added to solve the problem of wasted promotions for archers and crossbowmen. But nothing was really done for ranged mounted units. Mongolian and Arabian chariot archers avoid this problem up until the Industrial era, but it's still an issue.

An even bigger issue: Who actually uses chariot archers?

Mongolia, with its +1 to mounted movement bonus, can use them the same way they use Keshiks, provided there's no difficult terrain. In fact, as Mongolia I often build chariot archers as a priority over horsemen in the early game.

Egypt's war chariot works the same way, but can't be upgraded without losing most of its promotions.

My solution to this is: don't build chariot archers unless I'm playing Genghis.

This kind of sucks, though. Chariots were a big deal in the ancient world.

Thoughts?

When I play as the Mongolians against the AI, the game doesn't last long enough for me to need to upgrade my Keshiks, so I question the need for additional mounted units that make ranged attacks.

And I'm kind of against increasing the amount of mounted units that can make ranged attacks, as doing so makes the Mongolians and the Arabians weaker. Why? Giving everyone more ranged mounted units makes the Mongolian and Arabian UUs less unique.

 

[Light Cleric]

The problem is the less the promotions and more that's just one more reason not to use a garbage unit in the Chariot Archer

Camel Archers/Keshiks are a non-issue there because even on Deity you should be able to have the game locked away by then, those two units are so insanely broken. The others are at least useful enough in their own right.

 

[PostConsumerWat]

the ranged promotions do work for the upgraded chariot archers...

I was playing as attila and having lots of fun with the horse archer because by fighting barbarians you can upgrade to march... I was experimenting with the different promotions and when they upgraded I discovered that they do get the ranged bonus for melee.

I bet if you gave them the +1 range promotion that would be useless though... so now chariot archers, and related units, are really good IMO... particularly horse archers with the free accuracy promotion.

 

[civvver]

This is pretty simple, reset all promos on upgrade. Then user picks new ones with same amount of xp. If you have the save promotions option selected it would not work in this case, you'd be forced to spend any promotions reset right after the upgrade to prevent a bunch of insta heal abuse.

 

[kaspergm]

This is pretty simple, reset all promos on upgrade. Then user picks new ones with same amount of xp. If you have the save promotions option selected it would not work in this case, you'd be forced to spend any promotions reset right after the upgrade to prevent a bunch of insta heal abuse.

That would still open some doors for poor balance. Like pick early Cover I and II, and then when you upgrade pick Shock II and III instead to gain access to March. The logical and easy way is to simply transform Barrage and Accuracy into Drill and Shock when upgrading from ranged to melee units, and similarly for other promotions. There are mods that do this, and it works like a charm.

 

[tommynt]

a garbage unit in the Chariot Archer

its apart the german pikesman the by far best units in terms of power/cost

The logical and easy way is to simply transform Barrage and Accuracy into Drill and Shock when upgrading from ranged to melee units, and similarly for other promotions. There are mods that do this, and it works like a charm.

if u read the thread - it seems to work like exactly that - no mod needed ...

 

[Light Cleric]

its apart the german pikesman the by far best units in terms of power/cost

Okay?

It also needs a strategic resource, can't begin being constructed until The Wheel, and get wrecked by rough terrain in more ways than one.

Not really seeing the awesomeness here.

 

[Vintage Port]

I've never built a regular chariot archer.

I've played once as Egypt and was under-whelmed with their UU. It was Ok but I'd rather just use CB and then XB.