The Classical Freedom loving Left vs the Regressive Leftists

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I think there's certainly a negative effect - a message being sent out that is best not sent - of having people, even by proxy, take part in violence, particularly sexual violence and that against children, and have the positive reward of entertainment for doing so.
Why would violence against children be any more of a problem than violence against any other innocent citizen? That seems like a completely arbitrary line to draw. There might be some argument if it were depicting some kind of "This child is in your care, but you can decide to be an abusive parent"-situation, but is a scenario where you're going berserk and just swinging your sword at anyone in proximity?

And I mean you can still hit them, they'll run around all scared and stuff, blood will splatter... strange argument.

/edit - To add to that: As far as I can tell the real reason why you're not able to kill children is that many people would not be comfortable with the option, or "worse", having that happen by accident. It's certainly a legit decision, just one I disagree with. But hey, that's the beauty of being able to mod a game.
 
Sarkeesian's main work is the least controsversial thing I've ever seen that got folks worked up.

She's a woman and a feminist, so people (on this very forum as well) interpret that as the coming of the antichrist, ready to destroy video games and white straight cis males.
 
How is she a con-artist exactly? I keep hearing that slander being thrown at her constantly, never with any proof.

Well, there's the fact that she ran a kickstarter that raised over $150,000 more than 3 years ago and has to this day only delivered about half of the videos that she was supposed to do from it. If I pay a restaurant to make me a pizza and it takes them a week to deliver half a pizza to my house I'd consider that a scam.

No need to take my word for it, old Kickstarter projects are publicly viewable:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/description

I have also heard that she completely failed to deliver the physical backer rewards that were promised, but since I did not donate to the campaign I can neither confirm nor deny that based on first hand experience.
 
Well if you honestly believe she's a scam artist, a con person, why don't you organise some sort of lawsuit? Instead of just making baseless accusations, put your money where your mouth is and DO something.

Also the comparison between making videos and food is so wrong and just intellectualy dishonest that im honestly shocked you'd even make it.
 
Well if you honestly believe she's a scam artist, a con person, why don't you organise some sort of lawsuit? Instead of just making baseless accusations, put your money where your mouth is and DO something.

Also the comparison between making videos and food is so wrong and just intellectualy dishonest that im honestly shocked you'd even make it.
So in order to point out the shadiness of her one now has to be willing to file a lawsuit? That seems to be a rather harsh and unique restraint that I'm sure you would not accept for anything else.

"What, you claim there are harassers in gamergate? Yeah, yeah, spare me your evidence, file a lawsuit or stfu."?
 
I'm saying if you honestly believe she's a thief, con-artist etc do something other than just complaining about it on the internet. It seems to me it's just a conveniant excuse for you and others to attack your/their ideological enemies.
 
Well if you honestly believe she's a scam artist, a con person, why don't you organise some sort of lawsuit? Instead of just making baseless accusations, put your money where your mouth is and DO something.

Also the comparison between making videos and food is so wrong and just intellectualy dishonest that im honestly shocked you'd even make it.

I specifically said in my post that I didn't donate to her kickstarter, chief. Whether or not I consider her a scam artist, she has not scammed me personally, so where exactly do you think I would find legal grounds for something like that?

Also, my accusation isn't "baseless", it is in fact firmly grounds in publicly available information. Whether or not it qualifies as an actual scam may be arguable (some would argue that a rigged shell game isn't a scam as long as they have a good time playing it and that's a fair subjective opinion to hold), but the basic facts of the situation are not arguable. It's a fact that she collected 25 times the amount of money she originally asked for. It's a fact that this took place more than 3 years ago. It's a fact that in that time frame she has not produced the full amount of videos that the money was supposed to finance. These are facts that are a matter of public record. Personally I consider that a scam, if you don't then fine, good for you.
 
So it's her fault more people donated than she expected?
 
So it's her fault more people donated than she expected?

That is such a wildly inaccurate reading of what I wrote that I have to assume it's intentional. We're done here.

If anyone wants to take a whack at this subject with something resembling intellectual honesty then we can go from there.
 
" It's a fact that she collected 25 times the amount of money she originally asked for."
 
Owen Glyndwr said:
I think my favorite part of this refugee ridiculousness is the doublethink inherent to the whole thing.

I gave up on California a long time ago, been there done that I used to think the rumors of there being 'something in the water' bunk but now I'm not so sure. Any guesses as to which of the regressive lefts socialist utopias will be first to collapse, Sweden, Germany or California or France?


Princeps said:
There is nothing inherently wrong with suicide bombing.

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I really don't get your position, you got some Hezbollah cousins and friends, got some Albanian or Iranian in the family? Or is this how far the left of today has fallen?
Is maybe you lived in Germany and don't like the German people or the European cultures?
Is it just that you think America is always bad and believe in these international Jewish conspiracy and think Israel is 'evil' or something?
Ok let me guess who you are, Finnish or Finnic? Maybe I'm getting a little Karelian Romani or Sumoi in the way you write? You're the type of person who would vote for Suomen Kommunistinen Puolue or Kommunistinen Työväenpuolue Sosialismin? or vote for Suomen ruotsalainen kansanpuolue (RKP) or maybe support the Social Democratic Party of Finland?
am I getting warmer?

Princeps said:
I am not trying to claim that the Muslim world is the misunderstood holiest civilization of earth
Princeps said:
Princeps said:
Russia should support Iran, because it seems that an US attack on Iran maybe imminent.

Europeans learned 80% of the "renaissance" technologies and advances from the Muslims.


Are you sure you are not Muslim? Is this the way the left bases its arguments today? Maybe in the left we can find those people who are just an Islamist-Apologist and somebody who likes making excuses for radical Islam? You're not a person of Muslim Iranian heritage living in Germany? Or is this what the left movement has become? Is this what left means now, is it truly the dead end of the leftist movement?
I really don't get your position
Something tells me Finnish and you might be tempted vote for a Cultural Marxist, a Michael Moore or Chomsky character, mayb e you would support a Finland communist group? You think the nation Finland should open its borders to more 'refugees' and 'migrants'...guess throwing out some wild guesses about you?
tell me if my guess is all wrong

The Muslims I've talked to generally argue that the verses refer to specific Jews or non-believers who had raised arms against the Prophet, and were in effect combatants/aggressors.

The muslim friends you've talked to are telling you BS, they are not telling you the truth they are in fact preachers try to sell you more Islam
If you want to hear the truth talk to an Apostate or an Ex-Muslim.



A slobbering moron.


I don't get this? You have a feminist woman here in this video, she has an online personality 'The Factual Feminist' . This feminst in this vid she calls out other women for not speaking up against radical islamic barbarism, and criticizes other fellow Western women for not being critical against the muslim oppression of women


Link to video.


and you call her a 'slobbering moron'?

I'm trying to understand your position, did I get all that right?
 
For a feminist, she sure loves to pander to the anti-feminist crowd and to attack her fellow feminists, rather then advancing her supposed feminist cause.
 
For a feminist, she sure loves to pander to the anti-feminist crowd and to attack her fellow feminists, rather then advancing her supposed feminist cause.


Sometimes you need self-criticism to counteract some of the echo chamber going on in many movements. These people tend to not be very popular among the hard core.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'm saying if you honestly believe she's a thief, con-artist etc do something other than just complaining about it on the internet. It seems to me it's just a conveniant excuse for you and others to attack your/their ideological enemies.
Pretty insane requirements, especially when coming from a keyboard warrior like yourself. Again, you're just asking for ridiculous standards that you would not ask for if it were the other way around; arguments do stand on their merit, not on whether I'm willing to sue somebody or not.

For a feminist, she sure loves to pander to the anti-feminist crowd and to attack her fellow feminists, rather then advancing her supposed feminist cause.
Yeah, she's an "old-school feminist" from before the movement got overrun by the people who have tainted its reputation. It's funny, because she literally advocates for all the right things. Gender equality, female empowerment, female agency... yet she's hated by so many feminists. Why? Because she's politically right and does not cater to the professional victim brigade. She's literally being excluded for wrongthink, because feminism is not, or at least "no longer" a movement that cares about facts and debates.
 
You are "Free" to say anything you want. You are not free from the consequences of said speech (barring an protection from the Government). At least in the United States. And we have some of the strongest Free Speech protections in the world.
 
I really don't get your position, you got some Hezbollah cousins and friends, got some Albanian or Iranian in the family? Or is this how far the left of today has fallen?

No.


Is it just that you think America is always bad and believe in these international Jewish conspiracy and think Israel is 'evil' or something?

No.


Ok let me guess who you are, Finnish or Finnic? Maybe I'm getting a little Karelian Romani or Sumoi in the way you write? You're the type of person who would vote for Suomen Kommunistinen Puolue or Kommunistinen Työväenpuolue Sosialismin? or vote for Suomen ruotsalainen kansanpuolue (RKP) or maybe support the Social Democratic Party of Finland?
am I getting warmer?

Wut? RKP is a center-right Swedish-Finnish ethnic party. Are you saying that being from another ethnic group is a problem?

Now I'm pretty sure you're just a concern troll. Probably a far right winger pretending to be leftist. This type of character assassination is pretty much strictly their approach.

I voted for the SDP in the last election. It's a party that's maybe slightly to the left of the US mainstream democrats.

The fact that in the previous arguments I gave a strong defense of the market economy and the civil society that it supports, should have been a pretty obvious indication that I'm not a communist. I noticed that you're not very good with details.

Maybe I'm getting a little Karelian Romani

This weird question of ethnicity. I'm getting distinct neonazi vibes from you.

I also love the specificity. I'm not just a Romani apparently, I'm a KARELIAN ROMANI.

Stahp.

Are you sure you are not Muslim?

No. And the fact that you assume this confirms to me, that you are a concern troll. If its so hard to imagine that I'm defending minorities out of liberal humanism, I don't see how you can be a leftist.

How on earth can you assume that I'm a muslim when I've pretty obviously argued from the perspective of an outsider? Is that really lost on you?
Is this the way the left bases its arguments today? Maybe in the left we can find those people who are just an Islamist-Apologist and somebody who likes making excuses for radical Islam? You're not a person of Muslim Iranian heritage living in Germany? Or is this what the left movement has become? Is this what left means now, is it truly the dead end of the leftist movement?
I really don't get your position

Again, you're a far-right wing concern troll. Your obsession with ethnicity betrays your true nature. Perhaps you should try to hide it better next time. Even if I was an Iranian living in Germany, how would that make my arguments any different?

Something tells me Finnish and you might be tempted vote for a Cultural Marxist, a Michael Moore or Chomsky character, mayb e you would support a Finland communist group? You think the nation Finland should open its borders to more 'refugees' and 'migrants'...guess throwing out some wild guesses about you?
tell me if my guess is all wrong

Wooo. You're all knowing. You can read my history. Incredible research skills.

Also, the fact that you un-ironically use the antisemitic concept of cultural Marxism while accusing me of antisemitism is just hilarious.

The muslim friends you've talked to are telling you BS, they are not telling you the truth they are in fact preachers try to sell you more Islam
If you want to hear the truth talk to an Apostate or an Ex-Muslim.

Not an argument.

And my theories are not based on what Muslims say.

Religious Muslims wouldn't actually actually agree with me (about Islam being just a culture).
and you call her a 'slobbering moron'?


Yeah, because that's what she is, and she is not a feminist either.¨

So in order to point out the shadiness of her one now has to be willing to file a lawsuit?

Yes. Calling her a scam artist is definitely slander.

She got more money than she asked for; that is not fraud.

She wasn't engaged in affinity fraud; like she wasn't selling land in Chile she didn't own to her ideological compatriots.

She just asked for donations, and due to her being attacked by this mob of lunatic misogynists, she got vastly more than she asked for.

Still not fraud; not even shady one bit, unless you are extremely predisposed to attacking her.

Yes, there is context, there always is. The woman being brutally murdered can be framed as an act of joy and celebration of gore, or it could be framed in a way that makes the player aware of the violence that women have to face in similar situations in real life. (Both being perfectly valid on their own merit, female npcs have the same right of being brutally gorified as male npcs have - the beauty of equality.)

In the case of hitman the overall atmosphere is clearly one of empathy for the strippers. The dialog is actually written quite well and made me feel rather uncomfortable the first time I went through that stage (and that's only partly because of the bad voice acting). The fact that the player can "play around with them" is just the effect of an interactive medium, there is no story-benefit to toying around with them, there is no bonus-points for killing them (the opposite is true) and as far as you have to interact with them (which, for the most part is sneaking part them) you don't do anything to harm them. It would be stupid if the player could NOT play around with them because the game enforces some special rules (like when you attack a city in Skyrim and the fact that children are just immortal little gods that can't be harmed completely breaks your immersion).

Again: You're basically saying that games are not allowed to tackle mature themes because people aren't "forced" to be mature but can instead choose to have fun with the sandbox aspects of the game. While at the same time you guys are asking for games to grow up. How stupid is that?

Let me put in the simplest possible terms, so that you can understand.

Stories have no context similar to real life. That is, stories have no chain of prior events that dictate what must happen in the story later on. Stories are entirely written by the authors from the start to the end. Every character, every interaction, every piece of dialogue, every setting and every artistic choice is a deliberate decision by the authors. Nothing is ever introduced into a story spontaneously without the authors writing it in. Thus you can criticize the subtext of a scene without discussing the contrived context.

So when the developers chose to have the game events take place in a strip club; they chose that setting for a purpose. That purpose was to show half-naked women so that their game sells better to male audiences.

When the game developers chose to put half-naked women in as obstacles and challenges, to be either murdered or avoided, they wanted the player to be enter a situation where they deal with half-naked women.

When the game developers chose to put in the ridiculous BDSM nuns, they again hoped to cash in on sex.

The subtext is clear: the developers carefully shaped the story so as to enable them to sell the game with the allure of sex.

This is a common trope in many games: including Star Wars, where often even the smallest backwater planets have Twi'lek strip clubs, etc.

This is Sarkeesian's entirely uncontroversial point. She is just pointing out the trope and its incessant (ab)use. Whether this is a problem or not, is another subject.
 
Let me put in the simplest possible terms, so that you can understand.
It's funny how you say this and then follow up with a bunch of nonsense that wasn't even part of my post. You're simply too convinced that your position is correct that you don't understand what you're missing.

First of all, I agree with you that adding a strip-club (or anything else) is something they did because they had external reasons to do so, not because the story internally required it. A story is obviously created by the artists and does not "need to play out a certain way". So that whole part of your post? Completely irrelevant, you're talking about unimportant nonsense because you assume I'm saying something that I haven't even touched upon. Your bias made you assume that that's what I was saying.

Here's what I actually said, explained slowly, with additional explanations to make sure you can follow:

It is perfectly valid for the game developers to put in a strip club - for any reason they want. Of course Anita Sarkeesian can make her speech about how she doesn't like it and she can complain about how that topic is not handled the way she would like it to be handled and anyone who would get all up in arms about it and send her nasty words is an idiot. But of course making arguments for why people think her speech is silly is once again perfectly valid. That's a difference in opinion, people should have dialog about this.

Where she drops the ball is when she claims that the props (and with 'props' I mean the strippers) within the strip club are put there primarily to be attacked by the player. And I'll quote her directly from the Women as background decoration video (contains some nudity, so I won't link, but timestamp is 22:16):

"Players are then invited to explore and exploit those situations during their playthrough. The player cannot help but to treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon, because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose. Players are meant to derive a pervers pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting, virtual female characters."

This is simply nonsense. The strippers, like any other non-guard npc, are there to create atmosphere and storyline (actively or passively), and they do so by having dialog (which is more than can be said for most crowd-npcs), by having an implied, friendly relationships with each other to make them seem like actors, not objects. Because that's their place in the world as far as context goes. The fact that they can be attacked - an action for which the game actively penalizes the player - is simply a consistency of the rule set.
 
You have to be absurdly naive to think the game developers didn't put the strippers there for the players to murder if they pleased (this is literally what they did -- this is exactly how they designed their game, and that is a fact). It's sort of like saying GTA devs didn't put civies there for you to run down if you pleased. You are penalized for this too, by having cops come after you, one can argue: being pursued by cops is certainly a vastly greater penalty then having some sort of abstract points reduced, which most players care little about anyway.

It's quite interesting how, through out your arguments you have been withdrawing from the epic heroic accusations of fraud and crimes against video games that your kind have leveled against Sarkeesian, and now you're down to this "but but but, your points are deduced, duhhhhhh".

Like imagine a game where you can murder and rape little children, for no reason other than the game devs choosing a kindergarten setting. Does it really matter if they also include a system where points are reduced if you choose to do what the game is obviously inviting you to do? Hit Man is obviously inviting you to kill those women, going so far as to choose a strip club setting and placing those women in your path as obstacles.

It is perfectly valid for the game developers to put in a strip club - for any reason they want. Of course Anita Sarkeesian can make her speech about how she doesn't like it

Yes she is. And she should also be free of harassment and groundless, slanderous accusations of fraud.

But that's not really the issue, is it? This is about no-life losers, weird reactionary gamers who can't shake of their mouth foaming sarkeesian derangement syndrome.

So much obsessive controversy over such subjective differences.
 
What's hilarious is that Sarkeesian's critique of gaming is literally basic college 101 feminism and yet people treat it as some sort of crazy screed.
 
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