"The Dark Side": How the US ended up in Iraq.

[Neomega]

The "first one" didn't end there was a cease fire not a declaration of peace and an end to hostilities.

technically, it never started. There was never a declaration of war by congress.

 

[nihilistic]

Has anyone seen the Frontline piece on Cheney's pre-war activities? As I always suspected it is Cheney pulling the puppet strings. Anyway I think you can watch it online here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ in a few hours, it was on PBS monday night. Basically says that Cheney and Rummy pushed the whole thing through and got Tenent at the CIA to roll over on the intelligence. It is obvious that Cheney is a smart and driven guy, Bush is well... less so.

Wow, that show has made Cheney and Rumsfeld out to be a lost less sinister than I thought. Instead of conniving and deceitful, they just seem incompetent and stubborn. That's a huge improvement.

 

[Neomega]

Ahh, I see. Well, to be blunt, I don't care enough to devote two hours of my time to that.

then you really shouldn't be participating in this thread, since it was created to be a discussion of the documentary.

And you should watch it, it is an interesting insight into the highest level of power politics.

Not really. I wouldn't sit through a two-hour documentary on politics if it was from a conservative view, either, unless I had absolutely nothing else to do. (And with Civ4, that doesn't happen very often anymore)

And I will keep this little quote in my back pocket if I see you chiming in with your political opinion here again.

It really cannot be worth much if you cannot even devote 2 hours to a little education on the subjects.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

As I always suspected it is Cheney pulling the puppet strings.

It is obvious that Cheney is a smart and driven guy, Bush is well... less so.

Is there any reason at all for you to make up lies and call names besides your blind hatred for Bush?

 

[Neomega]

Is there any reason at all for you to make up lies and call names besides your blind hatred for Bush?

How about the documentary this thread is discussing. try watching it, then come back and tell us what you think.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/view/

and the hatred is really more towards Cheney, than Bush.

 

[CaptainF]

Is there any reason at all for you to make up lies and call names besides your blind hatred for Bush?

Its hypocritical to whine about hatred of one side when you hold blood boiling animosity for the other side.

 

[CaptainF]

Argh, French military jokes. I agree with Shane, in that they are UTTERLY ********.

They have experienced the full brunt of some of the world's most brutal wars ever fought on their own soil, and have fought terribly hard for their country in both of them. Unlike us, they have survivors that were massacred for a foreign dictatorship occupying their country. They have not forgotten this. The whole of Europe hasn't forgotten this really, and this has made them tired of war, but at the same time wiser about it. Because, well, they know when a war really counts, and Iraq didn't.

.....

Anyway,
I tend to think of Cheney as the string puller as well, along with Rove. Bush is an incredibly insulated president, with his advisors manipulating the hell out of him.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I always find it somewhat out of place when US people brings this argument, that US soldiers died to liberate France in its darkest times. So France politicians should always act like the good dog they should be, licking Washington's boots if its needed.

I think the point is that, when we don't do whatever the French want, they throw a hissy fit and go on about how we wouldnt exist if they handnt helped in our revolution, and the natural counter to this is that, since we owed France a large amount of money at the end of the Revolution ( the famed "war debt"), and it was considered "repaid" when we liberated France, the natural counter to the Revolution topic is the WWII topic. I dont think it's meant as a jab at how France ought to do what we tell it to today. Of course, people often have their own definitions for such things, but that's mine

 

[BasketCase]

I polled CFC a while back, and the result was that one-third of respondents said they were willing to lie in order to get George Bush out of office.

So, clearly, a hefty number of us are willing to indulge in a little "Dark Side" if we think the results will be good in the long run.

 

[Elrohir]

then you really shouldn't be participating in this thread, since it was created to be a discussion of the documentary.

And you should watch it, it is an interesting insight into the highest level of power politics.

Which was why I stopped posting in this thread, until you responded to my post and I felt the need to respond back.

And I will keep this little quote in my back pocket if I see you chiming in with your political opinion here again.

It really cannot be worth much if you cannot even devote 2 hours to a little education on the subjects.

Pardon me? If you don't feel like watching a two hour documentary by PBS, you're opinion is worthless when it comes to politics? That's ridiculous; it's like saying you can't express an opinion on any of the Star Wars movies unless you watch their two-hour documentary. That's simply absurd.

And you're welcome to keep that quote in your "back pocket" (I won't ask how you manage that ) if you so wish. My reasoning for not wanting to watch it, if you want to know, is not because I don't care about politics, or don't want to be informed: It's because I prefer to go out, and read different articles and blogs and discuss things on forums, instead of just listening to someone talk. It's also much easier to fact-check some even as unreliable as a blog entry, and they usually quote their sources, or provide a link.

I'm still not quite sure why you think not watching to sit on my computer and watch a two hour documentary makes me unqualified to debate politics. But you're entitled to your own (Wrong) opinon.

 

[King Flevance]

I actually saw some of it on TV. Cheney goes back into the old school days of polotics. The exact thing I thought during the collective 30 minutes of it is:

"There is the guy pulling the puppet strings to that jack-ass of a President we got."

I even considered why would Cheney need a puppet? I think 80% because of the name. Bush is like a God amongst the conservatives. I mean, it seems this fool can do no wrong. It seems republicans blame the system for why Bush comes off so bad. But the system has been predominatly in favor of the republican party for so long it still falls back on his party. Who better to hide behind than them? The other reason I thought was to have Bush there to "take the heat" in Cheney's place.

I will have to watch the all of the film when I get back in town.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

Its hypocritical to whine about hatred of one side when you hold blood boiling animosity for the other side.

Yes, your right. I'm hypocritical because I have this great gift that allows me to see when people are being idiots.

 

[karlhegna]

type french military victories on google then press I'm feeling lucky. lol

That's hilarious. Ahahahahaha

 

[.Shane.]

I think the point is that, when we don't do whatever the French want, they throw a hissy fit

Please give me one modern example of this. I'm pretty sure, that from Charles de Gaulle forward, this would not have been the case and I doubt it ever was, other than the occasional differences that any 2 countries have.

Funny thing is I can actually think of an example of two, but their nowhere near modern.

 

[CaptainF]

Yes, your right. I'm hypocritical because I have this great gift that allows me to see when people are being idiots.

Or at least when they are being contrary to your hypocrisy.

 

[GenMarshall]

Does anyone care about the Iraq war any more, it is getting a bit old and dried out.

I, for once, will admit that I am starting not careing about this silly war. For the first time, I am actualy apethetic about it.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

I, for once, will admit that I am starting not careing about this silly war. For the first time, I am actualy apethetic about it.

I really can't blame you, at this point it's a real gut check in were one stands. I for one don't think we really should have set foot in there in the manner we did. It really has cost us much in Prestige yet more importantly it has cost us something even more valuble than our money as well. It's cost us some of the finest and heroic men and women of this generation from several nations.

That is the real cost and reason to do the job, do it right and in the words of Larry the Cable Guy " Git er Done! "

I bled in Iraq, I served with people that died there. A few of them good, close friends. I have good friends that fought there and did not get a scratch on them. Normland has been there, I think he may be deployed right now. USArmy, Mob Boss. If they have not gone it is in the cards soon. I think YCNS did some time in another far away place. I also, you may be suprised about this, give a damn about the iraqi people too. They have paid a far greater cost in lives and terror than we as warriors do. They have placed many gallons of blood on the alter of freedom as have many nations when it was there time.

I think we should have learned from Vietnam that a long war is not like GW1 or the Island Stormings in the 80's. This is a real investment in the region, in that nation. We will be in iraq for a while. I wish it could all end tomarrow. I really do. We could build them thousands of schools and hospitals alone. Just stop blowing things and each other up.

The current state of world affairs does not allow for this.

I just think we owe to ourselves and the iraqis to make sure we see this through. I do not think America can take the sight of US Marines evacuating the Embassy in Baghdad in 2015 like we did in Saigon in 1975. I sure as hell don't think the Iraqi's want that neither. Notice they cought on to this " vote for someone besides Saddam for once " concept real quick.

That is MHO, at least.

 

[GenMarshall]

Somehow I wonder if we create a "do you still support the Iraq War" poll. Somehow I would not be supprised to see the results different from when the "Iraq War" poll was first posted. I would predict that there would be an increace of "I dont care" or "Apethetic about the war" options increace.

I also, you may be suprised about this, give a damn about the iraqi people too.

Some how I dont know how to care about the Iraqi people since its hard to tell wheather they are pro-American and need our aid from the Iraqis who are anti-American and want us off our propery as well as blowing themselves up.

 

[.Shane.]

Somehow I wonder if we create a "do you still support the Iraq War" poll.

What do you mean "still"?

 

[GenMarshall]

What do you mean "still"?

Well, there are still some people who still support the war and will fight tooth and nail to state that we are suppost to be there