The Deity Challenge Line-up #32 - England

[beetle]

^^ Wow! What a difference two 14 hours makes!
5 city Tradition == fail
4 city Tradition == fast diplo win

Is that right? Anything else? Seems crazy!

 

[prodi]

I have no idea how I managed to score a significantly faster SV on the Russia map

The Russia map is very, very strong, with lots of salt, mountain start, desert capital, Lake Victoria, strategic resources, one land mass, central location etc. This England map is also strong, but in the degree of "strong food, low production - but salt, and isolated start (Venice as closest neighbour) with easy access to other civilizations" kind of way. I did Domination for this game, but I imagine that this map should be very strong for SV. I findCV has so much variance since the success is so dependant on what the AI do, and China and Arabia were really strong in my game.

On that note, I played the Russia map twice. My first stab was a SV at 270-280, which was poor for the map and I blame myself for parts of it, but my neighbours just put cities all around me too quickly for me to settle more than three good cities, and one of them (Shoshone) DoW'ed me several times. My second stab at that map, though - seeing the power of the map, I chose to try my first CV on Deity, and got it at 230-240, and my neighbours didn't harass me at all, and the game was completely different in all kinds of ways.

 

[beetle]

I am chuffed, my first Domination Victory at Deity! (Something I never pulled off at Immortal.) Score was 5098 adjusted (#1), 3722 raw. (I think that is right. Score dropped to 3598 because I liberated the last city.)

Way too late for most games, but it worked on this map with how much fighting was going on. It wasn’t really my plan, but I pretty much turtled until Public Schools were all built, bulbed a bunch of GS and hit my continent with Rocket Launchers. At that point, I was under real threat of cities flipping, so turn 305 I switch ideologies (into Freedom) and moved into position to take the rest of the world. As you can see from the screen shot, I took just the four cities I need there.

 

[consentient]

Beetle, you've inspired me to try the same strategy. I've never done it, so I'll give it a go.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Yeah I too don't really wait around for rockets, but man that's totally old school, good stuff

I'm definitely going to try Honor LB sweep of this map and try to pummel the other with ships.

Oh and also, beetle, you shouldn't really consider any of my games as examples for anything, because I'm all over the place

 

[cazaderonus]

So i started this game in the train when going for a weeding this week end. Kept going last night when coming back completely exhausted and with a hurting liver

Spoiler :

I went a 5 city liberty, sadly found eldorado too late and got no gold as i was bullying Venice for workers. In the end, got only one but also killed a merchant. Decided to DOW the south maritime CS and got 2 other workers out of it. Stayed at war with it for a long while, training 2/3 archers on it.

I opened with mining, archery, AH, pottery, sailing, lux tech, philosophy

Build order was scout, monument, archer, settler, caravan, settler, settler, caravan, worker. Sent caravans all to Venice after making peace which allowed me to leach almost 10 science/ turn.

I reached a 5 city NC at turn 90/92 using GE to fast build it. I really think i could have done better with libraries, and probably hard build NC and set an academy instead with a GS. But turns out the city i built last was the lowest production one (the one for the marble south of starting spot)

Early happiness was tough, had to block cities to 2/3 pop to allow my capitol to grow a bit. Popped some more archers and Composites for a total of 5 using the 2nd a 3rd city, and 2 late warriors in cap before improving iron for a total of 3 swordsmen.

Got toward mecanics immediatly after NC. Popping another caravan for science leach with venice.

At turn 100/105 i had my army set for taking both Aztec and Arabia's capitols : 5 LBs, 2swordsmen and a horsemen. Decided to got for Arabia first as he was getting too strong and started popping camel archers. Also, he had Notre Dame and some other solid wonder\lux. Sadly, i had to delay for 7/8 turns after moving my units so DOF would end. As a little help from fate, he offered to DOW Pacal which i accepted with great pleasure. So those 7/8 turn delaying DOWing Arabia were nice to watch them kill each other. 1 turn from the end of DOF with arabia, sold him all i had for flat gold and then stabbed him in the back next turn. War was over fast, took his capitol in 10 turns or so. Got two LBs to logistics in the process. Signed peace for 70 GPT right after and i pushed toward Palenque right after. Took it in 4/5 turns and got another nice peace for 60 GPT.

In the mean time, reached education around 120 and started on unis. Then went directly for astronomy. Met all the other AIs as well after capturing the first 2 capitols so no one had any trouble with my warmongering.

Venice decided to DOW me and attack a weak city. Hardbuilt a galleas and a LB + walls. Smashed 10 units with that combo and got another peace for 50+ GPT around turn 135.

I'm now crapping out Galleas as i decided to stop researching astronomy until 1 turn left so i can fast build a navy and use the massive GPT i have to upgrade them to SoTLs. Got 4/5 caravels spotting coasts. Bad news is Moscow and Pasargades arent coastal but i think i'll just push with upgraded LBs to machinegun (they keep the range perk right ?). Until then i'll take Medina as it has interesting wonders and arabia could bounce back as it's a solid city. Mayans are done i think and Venice is a lame warmonger so a basic defense should hold any attempt to DOW me. I'll use Venice for safe trade routes until the end and take it last i think.

Science wise, i'm at 170BPT which doesnt seem too bad and i'll get to ST until turn 160 + ratio opener. Will then aim for industrialisation and artillery just to be safe.

So yeah far so good i'd say.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I think I asked before, but is Honor viable on this map. Your Liberty seem to be in pretty good shape for the second part mayhem

 

[budweiser]

I think I asked before, but is Honor viable on this map. Your Liberty seem to be in pretty good shape for the second part mayhem

I used tradition>honor>autocracy IIRC.

 

[cazaderonus]

I think I asked before, but is Honor viable on this map. Your Liberty seem to be in pretty good shape for the second part mayhem

Spoiler :

I considered honor for the 2 SP i would have to use before rationalism but really i dont think it s worth anything. With the LBs extra range, you dont really need that much XP to ruin your starting continent. And SoTL are just beasts so again i dont see any advantage in honor here. I didnt even build a barrack in my capitol

I took 2 SPs in Patronage in case i ever need CS allies for happiness or something. I completely scrubbed religion and faith building (was at 0FPT before taking La Mecque) and i dont even plan on investing hammers in the world fair (or maybe to get 350 if i'm not mass building units).

I want to set foot on the other continent fast with my original army + my dozen ships. Probably Beijing as it's close to Pasar and Moscow it seems. And i'll probably stay at war with china for XP after taking Beijing so i can then use ranged\logistics machine guns to wreck those land capitols. I'm only worried with happiness tbh. I think gold should be ok.

Damn, just remembered Persepolis is the actual capitol for Persia lol. Still not coastal though i have to see how exactly it is located. Also, Mongolia's capitol has been taken by Persia. Might very well liberate it when attacking Persia for antiwarmonger bonus as it will be an easy target to reclaim later on.

Also, a quick question for veterans as i have a doubt : can you get machine guns with 3 range attack ? Aka the range perk from LBs plus an extra range perk from XP ?

 

[beetle]

...so it should be fine to wait for the Scout.

I got there on turn 10 with my scout, there was already a city! Warrior got a culture ruin on turn 4 though, so that is quite the consolation prize.

SIP for four city tradition. Things look much better than my last game, so I should be able war with LB and SotL this time!

 

[gobbledydook]

Spoiler :

5 city liberty, I was going to longbow rush then everyone on the continent asked for friendship. So it's been peaceful so far and my longbows have nothing to do.

Also it's true that Venice as a neighbour makes things much easier...

 

[beetle]

I was going to longbow rush then everyone on the continent asked for friendship.

Yeah, what is with that?

Spoiler :

Finally Pacal just asked me to war with him against Harun, and my DoF had just expired. So LB through the woods to the middle of the map!

Also it's true that Venice as a neighbour makes things much easier...

In my terrible HCA try, I took Venice w/ LB first. I think that was a mistake.

 

[consentient]

can you get machine guns with 3 range attack ? Aka the range perk from LBs plus an extra range perk from XP ?

There is no extra range perk AFAIK.

I think I asked before, but is Honor viable on this map. Your Liberty seem to be in pretty good shape for the second part mayhem

Honor is nearly always viable, but it's in tough shape here with no XP farm, no decent first target, and limited production.

 

[beetle]

Honor is nearly always viable, but it's in tough shape here with no XP farm, no decent first target, and limited production.

What are you looking for in an XP farm? A military CS specifically? One could train up on the closest AI, but especially for HCA one needs a trading partner for science and gold. I am glad to see you say that this is a harder map for Honor -- since I did so badly with it!

 

[cazaderonus]

There is no extra range perk AFAIK.



Honor is nearly always viable, but it's in tough shape here with no XP farm, no decent first target, and limited production.

Any CS is an XP farm. No decent first target ? What are all the civs on the starting island then ? Limited production ? Aint that what honor is supposed to help with for melee units ?

Still, it's never mandatory imo and finishing Lib\Trad is a much better choice overall.

As for the range perk ? Do you mean there's no extra range perk for LB ? Or for machine guns ? Coz i swear i had 2 range machine guns before. Only question is can you stack the LB perk with the natural XP one (which exists)

 

[stormtrooper412]

I think the LB range is the promotion that they start with and you can't double them up. Just like you (I think) can't have triple shooting CKNs

 

[beetle]

No decent first target? What are all the civs on the starting island then?

Ideally, I like to take one cap with CB rush. I imagine you do too. Anyone pull that off on this map?

Seems like one really needs to hold out for LB and even then the terrain nerfs the +1 range. When I did the neighbor first, it was from the far side, which is part of why I now think it makes more sense to save the neighbor for last. Plus the money and science from trade routes. Plus lets the neighbor build a couple more wonders for me!

So yeah, no really decent first target.

I think the LB range is the promotion that they start with and you can't double them up.

I can't believe I have not been able to try this for sure on this map, but I think you can get both promotions -- but then one is wasted because there is no stacking effect. Similar to repair + march. Still, build all the LBs you can, since starting gats and machine guns with +1 range are very nice.

 

[cazaderonus]

I think the LB range is the promotion that they start with and you can't double them up. Just like you (I think) can't have triple shooting CKNs

You can actually get triple shooting CKN. Well at least you can get logistics on top of their UA. But you wont ever have the movement point required to actually use the third shot as they only have 2.

 

[cazaderonus]

Ideally, I like to take one cap with CB rush. I imagine you do too. Anyone pull that off on this map?

Seems like one really needs to hold out for LB and even then the terrain nerfs the +1 range. When I did the neighbor first, it was from the far side, which is part of why I now think it makes more sense to save the neighbor for last. Plus the money and science from trade routes. Plus lets the neighbor build a couple more wonders for me!

So yeah, no really decent first target.

Spoiler :

Didnt even consider using CBs as LBs are just so good. As for the terrain. Arabic and Mayan Capitols were no problem at all. Came from the east desert on la Mecque, not much obstacles there, 6/7 spots for LBs easy. Perhaps he could have settled there in other games but i highly doubt it (he had settled a 3rd city north east on the crab lux).

And Palenque from the east as well offers 4/5 spots for LBs.

So if taking 2 capitols at turn 115 isnt good decent earlyish target then damn me . And as always, i'm sure you could do this same thing a good 10 turn earlier as i had to wait for the end of my DOF with arabia. On a total rampage, no saving Venice for trade routes, not caring about diplo hits or good peace treaty etc..., i think the continent would have been empty turn 120.

Yep, forgot spoiler tag this time

 

[beetle]

Please use spoiler tag if you name civs!

Didnt even consider using CBs as LBs are just so good... So if taking 2 capitols at turn 115 isnt good decent earlyish target then damn me.

Two caps at T115 is terrific! I will have barely started by then. I just don’t think that squares with what consentient meant in context by “early”.

As for the terrain... no problem at all... 6/7 spots for LBs easy.

My complaint is having to go through forest or jungle first. Which is why I was waiting for an invite from one or the other before kicking things off. I really want to be able to make use of the clear terrain between them.