The Desert and the Mountain - Empires of Africa

[Plotinus]

Not too shabby but not to great, I rate it a 5.5 out of 10, for you leaving out more than half of the continent. What time place is this, it seems to be very historically inaccurate. For one there has never been a force in africa prior to modeern times able to topple the ethiopian government, heck they never lost a war and beat Italy twice even when they were backed by the Nazi even though Italy did occupy most of the country for 4 years in the 1930s-40.
Secondly the Youraba/fulani empire who pretty much controlled the largest empire in african history so why are they not in here? it is within your time frame. Furthermore, how could you forget great zimbabwe, benin, kongo, rowzi, and zululand.

What you have done is the equivalent of making an europe scenario with Portugal, Spain, Italy and Yugoslavia

Seems a bit harsh. I never claimed that this is about the whole continent of Africa, and I don't really see why you think it should be - on the contrary, I thought I had more than enough on my hands with just the northern half. Similarly, if someone wanted to make a scenario featuring just the European countries you mention, why on earth shouldn't they? I think it's a bit offensive to suggest that any "African" scenario must necessarily feature all "African" civs, even ones as different as Benin and Zimbabwe. Just because they're on the same continent doesn't mean they have much in common. This is like criticising people who have made American Civil War scenarios for not including Brazil.

As beboy mentioned, Benin is in the scenario, and the other civs you mention were not in the part of Africa that I dealt with. I was actually going to feature Kongo, originally, but I couldn't find a way to "link" them to the rest of the scenario - just too remote and culturally distinct. Also, beboy is right to say that the Fulani empire was a nineteenth-century matter, so it wouldn't fit this scenario. It would have been more accurate for me to put in Dahomey in that area for this timeframe. But because the map is relatively small, there didn't seem much point. Benin occupies enough space in that region as it is. All scenarios and map-based mods have to simplify things in this way. No-one has criticised me for not putting the kingdom of Wight into the Anglo-Saxon scenario - at least not yet.

I agree that scenarios featuring the civs you mention would be great to see. But I don't know very much about them and they don't fit in this scenario. So those are scenarios that other people can make. The fact that they haven't done so isn't really grounds for criticising me for also not doing so!

Even though the Ethiopian government never actually was toppled prior to Mussolini's invasion (at least by external forces - many Ethiopian governments were toppled by internal forces throughout history, just as with most countries) it doesn't follow that there never existed any force capable of doing so. If you read the pedia entry on Adal you'll see that Ethiopia was brought to its knees by the forces of Granh, with the emperor reduced to a fugitive; only European intervention saved the empire. Also, the invasion of Yodit, although shrouded in legend, may have been an occasion when hostile external forces conquered Ethiopia for a time. The whole point of a scenario is that it lets you replay history in an alternate way. In real life, Ethiopia was never conquered by Adal or any of the other intermittently hostile states that neighboured it, but it doesn't follow from that that it should be completely safe from all prospect of invasion in the scenario. You might as well criticise Firaxis for making it possible to play the Aztecs in the Age of Discovery conquest and resist the invading European forces.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Bravo, Plotinus!

 

[Mentat]

No-one has criticised me for not putting the kingdom of Wight into the Anglo-Saxon scenario - at least not yet.

Hmm, should I do it? (ooh its soo tempting)
Nah, someone beat me to it, naturally

Nothing much more to add to the above. Mabye I should say ,"Ghafhi, give the scenario a try. Especially after Plotinus has finished his latest changes. it really ain't that bad, you know".

 

[Virote_Considon]

Better idea: Ghafhi, if you are looking for this kind of scenario, why don't you try making it yourself? You never know, you could enjoy it. It will also make this scenario HELL of a lot better, from a modder's point of view!

 

[Plotinus]

Here is the Arabian tech tree as it currently stands. Not a lot in there right now, but I've got it fairly well planned out... As you can see, I've taken some of Mentat's ideas but stuck in a pile of other stuff too. These civs are going to have a lot of Wonders available to them. I'm also going to add some new resources. Some of these will be required to build the game-winning "SS part", so these civs will have to negotiate/conquer their way to controlling all necessary resources...

 

[Stormrage]

Why`d ya put the Jannisary in Astronomy?

 

[Plotinus]

Because I couldn't think where else to put it (too many units at Gunpowder already). I think I'll change Seafaring to something else and put the Janissary there.

 

[MoMo19947]

i'm having a problem loading this game. there is always a file missing... its a kind of farm i think.

 

[Plotinus]

When exactly does it happen? Can you be more specific about the file it's missing?

There haven't been any problems like this before, so it's possible that the download got corrupted or something. You could try downloading it again, which is a hassle but often seems to work.

 

[Ghafhi]

Seems a bit harsh. I never claimed that this is about the whole continent of Africa, and I don't really see why you think it should be - on the contrary, I thought I had more than enough on my hands with just the northern half. Similarly, if someone wanted to make a scenario featuring just the European countries you mention, why on earth shouldn't they? I think it's a bit offensive to suggest that any "African" scenario must necessarily feature all "African" civs, even ones as different as Benin and Zimbabwe. Just because they're on the same continent doesn't mean they have much in common. This is like criticising people who have made American Civil War scenarios for not including Brazil.

As beboy mentioned, Benin is in the scenario, and the other civs you mention were not in the part of Africa that I dealt with. I was actually going to feature Kongo, originally, but I couldn't find a way to "link" them to the rest of the scenario - just too remote and culturally distinct. Also, beboy is right to say that the Fulani empire was a nineteenth-century matter, so it wouldn't fit this scenario. It would have been more accurate for me to put in Dahomey in that area for this timeframe. But because the map is relatively small, there didn't seem much point. Benin occupies enough space in that region as it is. All scenarios and map-based mods have to simplify things in this way. No-one has criticised me for not putting the kingdom of Wight into the Anglo-Saxon scenario - at least not yet.

I agree that scenarios featuring the civs you mention would be great to see. But I don't know very much about them and they don't fit in this scenario. So those are scenarios that other people can make. The fact that they haven't done so isn't really grounds for criticising me for also not doing so!

Even though the Ethiopian government never actually was toppled prior to Mussolini's invasion (at least by external forces - many Ethiopian governments were toppled by internal forces throughout history, just as with most countries) it doesn't follow that there never existed any force capable of doing so. If you read the pedia entry on Adal you'll see that Ethiopia was brought to its knees by the forces of Granh, with the emperor reduced to a fugitive; only European intervention saved the empire. Also, the invasion of Yodit, although shrouded in legend, may have been an occasion when hostile external forces conquered Ethiopia for a time. The whole point of a scenario is that it lets you replay history in an alternate way. In real life, Ethiopia was never conquered by Adal or any of the other intermittently hostile states that neighboured it, but it doesn't follow from that that it should be completely safe from all prospect of invasion in the scenario. You might as well criticise Firaxis for making it possible to play the Aztecs in the Age of Discovery conquest and resist the invading European forces.

As I recall it is called the empires of africa scenairo. What you have done is made an equivalent of an empires of Europe scenario in 1700s and left out Britain. Claimed that Belgium is as strong as France and made a city state a super power in the name of interesting game play.

I thought it was a major error for you to leave out great zimbabwe maybe and benin considering their major influences. It is not about how much in commomn africans have it is about accuracy. If you wanted to use the northern half of africa only then fine, but don't start forgetting maajor influences and powers if you do so. I'm no historian but I don't think Brazil played any significant role in American civil war much less world history outside of latin america, besides portugal.

If you can't find a way to link the Congo into a african empire game then that speaks volumes about your intelligence or at least lack of it.

Fulanis actually had a massive empire by the 16th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulani "During the 16th century the Fula expanded through the sahel grasslands stretching from what is today Senegal to Sudan."

I think you misunderstood the readings. It said that adal was the invader, he himself who was an ethiopian and really a break away ethiopian muslim province not actually its own nation because it was reunified shortly.

 

[Plotinus]

As I recall it is called the empires of africa scenairo. What you have done is made an equivalent of an empires of Europe scenario in 1700s and left out Britain. Claimed that Belgium is as strong as France and made a city state a super power in the name of interesting game play.

It is not called the empires of Africa. It is about only some empires of Africa. Britain was a major influence on other European nations in 1700. I haven't left out any important civ that was a major influence on the civs featured in this scenario in this time and place! And I don't believe I've made any city states into superpowers for the sake of gameplay. You can't keep comparing Africa to Europe in your criticisms, because they were completely different in structure. Since antiquity, all the areas or nations of Europe have been in constant communication and had mutual influences on each other. But Africa isn't like that, because groups of people have until recently been isolated, cut off from each other by jungles and deserts. This is why you have very distinctive cultures in the Sahel, in the Nile valley, in the Horn of Africa, in the southern savannahs, and so on. They just didn't have anything to do with each other. It would be utterly artificial to make a scenario covering the entire continent, purely because they're all in "Africa". The idea of Africa as some kind of cultural unifier beyond simply a landmass on the map is a very western construct really. I thought I was being fairly artificial making a scenario witih both Mali and Ethiopia at the same time, given that they didn't exactly have much to do with each other as it is. It would just be too unwieldy to try to extend that.

I thought it was a major error for you to leave out great zimbabwe maybe and benin considering their major influences. It is not about how much in commomn africans have it is about accuracy. If you wanted to use the northern half of africa only then fine, but don't start forgetting maajor influences and powers if you do so. I'm no historian but I don't think Brazil played any significant role in American civil war much less world history outside of latin america, besides portugal.

This is wrong on so many levels! As I already told you, Benin is in the scenario. It seems harsh to make such a criticism of something that you evidently haven't played. And Great Zimbabwe didn't have the slightest influence on the civs in this scenario. It was many hundreds of miles away and completely culturally distinct. Unless you can produce some evidence for Zimbabwe's enormous influence on medieval Ethiopia or Mali, I'm happy to leave them out of this one. Until then, what you're saying is like criticising someone for making a scenario about the English Civil War and not putting Hungary in.

If you can't find a way to link the Congo into a african empire game then that speaks volumes about your intelligence or at least lack of it.

Now you're just being unnecessarily offensive. Kongo was also extremely isolated from the other civs dealt with in this scenario. Why can't I make a scenario about Mali without having to bring in Kongo? They never had any dealings with each other.

Fulanis actually had a massive empire by the 16th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulani "During the 16th century the Fula expanded through the sahel grasslands stretching from what is today Senegal to Sudan."

If you're getting your information from Wikipedia then you don't really have any right to criticise other people's intelligence. Nevertheless, in this case Wiki has it right and you've misunderstood. That page states that the Fulani lived in the enormous area specified, not that they ruled it or operated some kind of Fulani empire there. That would be like reading that there were lots of Celts in western Europe in the first century AD and assuming that this meant there was a huge Celtic empire there. As I said before, the Fulani created an empire in northern Africa only after Songhai and Kanem-Bornu collapsed. And that is what Wiki says too, in a rare moment of accuracy.

I think you misunderstood the readings. It said that adal was the invader, he himself who was an ethiopian and really a break away ethiopian muslim province not actually its own nation because it was reunified shortly.

I don't know what readings you mean. However, Adal and the other Muslim states of the Horn of Africa were perfectly distinct from Ethiopia, apart from those times when Ethiopia conquered and ruled them. Even if Adal were simply a breakaway province, why can't it be represented as its own civ? It's not my fault that the game doesn't provide any other means of representing a civil war.

 

[Nithron]

And yet, Plotinus, you stack another great scenario upon us to play. I can't wait to play this one

 

[Mentat]

@Ghafi:

Its sad to see you dashing out senseless arguments against Plotinus that way. I thought you to be resourceful and clever right before that last post, unfortunately you proof to be somewhat too "hasty".

Set aside my personal feelings about Plotinus scenario and that I found it to be one of the most challenging, amusing and accurate ones, it doubtlessly has its weak spots. But thats something Plotinus never hid from the comunity. Furthermore, he has a right to "only" focus on the nothern part of Africa, since its his scenario.

You put up some interesting points before your last post, and I really thought you were looking to improve the Mod, giving some insights, may those be personal or scientific in that matter. I wonder why you got frustrated with Plotinus work that much, not trying to convince him otherwise then by postíng accusations. After all Plotinus is just one more friend of the CIV-game, looking to entertain himself, and even the better the entire comunity with some more or less historic scenarios. We all know about the limits of the game, and of the limits we have regarding to display history accurately, especially nowadays.

Well lets get to the point that I was originaly heading at. Why not cooperating in the cause of making the scenario better? At least you took the time to bring up your points and critizise the work done by Plotinus. Thats all it needs as a start to come up with better ideas and solutions. But it is the solutions we are seeking here (and fun of course), and not necessarily a conflict, at least not outside a Civ-game.

Kind Regards

Mentat

 

[Ghafhi]

It is not called the empires of Africa. It is about only some empires of Africa. Britain was a major influence on other European nations in 1700. I haven't left out any important civ that was a major influence on the civs featured in this scenario in this time and place! And I don't believe I've made any city states into superpowers for the sake of gameplay. You can't keep comparing Africa to Europe in your criticisms, because they were completely different in structure. Since antiquity, all the areas or nations of Europe have been in constant communication and had mutual influences on each other. But Africa isn't like that, because groups of people have until recently been isolated, cut off from each other by jungles and deserts. This is why you have very distinctive cultures in the Sahel, in the Nile valley, in the Horn of Africa, in the southern savannahs, and so on. They just didn't have anything to do with each other. It would be utterly artificial to make a scenario covering the entire continent, purely because they're all in "Africa". The idea of Africa as some kind of cultural unifier beyond simply a landmass on the map is a very western construct really. I thought I was being fairly artificial making a scenario witih both Mali and Ethiopia at the same time, given that they didn't exactly have much to do with each other as it is. It would just be too unwieldy to try to extend that.



This is wrong on so many levels! As I already told you, Benin is in the scenario. It seems harsh to make such a criticism of something that you evidently haven't played. And Great Zimbabwe didn't have the slightest influence on the civs in this scenario. It was many hundreds of miles away and completely culturally distinct. Unless you can produce some evidence for Zimbabwe's enormous influence on medieval Ethiopia or Mali, I'm happy to leave them out of this one. Until then, what you're saying is like criticising someone for making a scenario about the English Civil War and not putting Hungary in.



Now you're just being unnecessarily offensive. Kongo was also extremely isolated from the other civs dealt with in this scenario. Why can't I make a scenario about Mali without having to bring in Kongo? They never had any dealings with each other.



If you're getting your information from Wikipedia then you don't really have any right to criticise other people's intelligence. Nevertheless, in this case Wiki has it right and you've misunderstood. That page states that the Fulani lived in the enormous area specified, not that they ruled it or operated some kind of Fulani empire there. That would be like reading that there were lots of Celts in western Europe in the first century AD and assuming that this meant there was a huge Celtic empire there. As I said before, the Fulani created an empire in northern Africa only after Songhai and Kanem-Bornu collapsed. And that is what Wiki says too, in a rare moment of accuracy.



I don't know what readings you mean. However, Adal and the other Muslim states of the Horn of Africa were perfectly distinct from Ethiopia, apart from those times when Ethiopia conquered and ruled them. Even if Adal were simply a breakaway province, why can't it be represented as its own civ? It's not my fault that the game doesn't provide any other means of representing a civil war.

Africa did have lots of let just say cultural intermingling maybe notas much as Eurpoe but it was still there. Considering the Bantu Ethnic group constitutes more than half of Africa from the South to the North it is hard for me to see how you so readily exclude that.

I still don't see how you can make a scenario about Africa without Kongo. Kongo had nomours influnece in the middle ages.


Perhaps you misread the article it says there was a Fulani empire not merely people.

Maybe next time make a scenario that is more accurate, or stick to modern africa since you seem to no nothing about past africa.

 

[Ghafhi]

@Ghafi:

Its sad to see you dashing out senseless arguments against Plotinus that way. I thought you to be resourceful and clever right before that last post, unfortunately you proof to be somewhat too "hasty".

Set aside my personal feelings about Plotinus scenario and that I found it to be one of the most challenging, amusing and accurate ones, it doubtlessly has its weak spots. But thats something Plotinus never hid from the comunity. Furthermore, he has a right to "only" focus on the nothern part of Africa, since its his scenario.

You put up some interesting points before your last post, and I really thought you were looking to improve the Mod, giving some insights, may those be personal or scientific in that matter. I wonder why you got frustrated with Plotinus work that much, not trying to convince him otherwise then by postíng accusations. After all Plotinus is just one more friend of the CIV-game, looking to entertain himself, and even the better the entire comunity with some more or less historic scenarios. We all know about the limits of the game, and of the limits we have regarding to display history accurately, especially nowadays.

Well lets get to the point that I was originaly heading at. Why not cooperating in the cause of making the scenario better? At least you took the time to bring up your points and critizise the work done by Plotinus. Thats all it needs as a start to come up with better ideas and solutions. But it is the solutions we are seeking here (and fun of course), and not necessarily a conflict, at least not outside a Civ-game.

Kind Regards

Mentat

Ok I will give him some pointers. Maybe make a mdoern game, focus on the 'first world war' of Africa. there is tonnes of info on it and since your such a great moderator I have expectaions of you polinius.

 

[kairob]

Jesus, I have no idea why he puts up with your crap when you cant even be arsed to spell his name right. Why are you even posting here? just to annoy people? or to show us all what an idiot you are?

 

[dferrill]

Ok I will give him some pointers. Maybe make a mdoern game, focus on the 'first world war' of Africa. there is tonnes of info on it and since your such a great moderator I have expectaions of you polinius.

Man why do you have to be so crititical and sarcastic to him and his scenario its his right to make a scenario the way he wants concerning Africa and with what civs should be in it since its his creation anyhow. im waiting to see if you are capable of posting something positive instead of the negative and sarcastic crap that you have done so far, you might want to concentrate more on your spelling instead of your self proclaimed knowledge of Africa.

 

[kairob]

dferrill I havnt seen you post before that I remember but I like you...

...a lot!

 

[lezonerdag]

Not too shabby but not to great, I rate it a 5.5 out of 10, for you leaving out more than half of the continent. What time place is this, it seems to be very historically inaccurate. For one there has never been a force in africa prior to modeern times able to topple the ethiopian government, heck they never lost a war and beat Italy twice even when they were backed by the Nazi even though Italy did occupy most of the country for 4 years in the 1930s-40.
Secondly the Youraba/fulani empire who pretty much controlled the largest empire in african history so why are they not in here? it is within your time frame. Furthermore, how could you forget great zimbabwe, benin, kongo, rowzi, and zululand.

What you have done is the equivalent of making an europe scenario with Portugal, Spain, Italy and Yugoslavia

I know very little about African history, in fact, I just learned how to post replies on this site. However, I have been playing Civ since the original version. I can honestly say that if you rate this scenario a 5.5 out of 10 then there are a few possibilities as to why. 1) You are secretly making a better one yourself 2) You are an idiot 3) You are an idiot. Oh, I seem to have mentiones that last one twice, my bad. Dude, you are insulting hands down one of the best scenarios EVER MADE for this game. I'm sure I am not the only one who has spent MANY hours playing this one and my personal favorite, The Rood and the Dragon. I have never posted before and don't know if I will again (except my next response to your last post). Perhaps this game is not for you. At any rate - if you dislike this scenario so much then why are you keeping up with the posts and playing it? Maybe you just wish you had the creativity and courage to make one yourself, post it for everyone to examine and then deal with post after post for YEARS to make it better. There are things I like and dislike about this scenario just like everything in life, nothing here is meant to be perfect. That doesn't change the fact that IT PUTS OTHER SCENARIOS DOWN IN BED TO TAKE A NAP, NEVER TO AWAKE. For god's sake, I play Plotinus' scenarios more than the original Civ3 game!


Plotinus-thank you for your wonderful scenarios. They are appreciated and admired by me.

 

[dferrill]

dferrill I havnt seen you post before that I remember but I like you...

...a lot!

I havent posted before on this thread im checking out new scenarios im not new to civ 3 but i am new to this forum and like the people here because there kind helpfull and respectfull to each other except for one person that ive seen so far. usually i keep my mouth shut but i couldnt resist because the people that make mods for us here on there own free time deserve better treatment then whats being displayed by some people thankfully its very few who act like a child on this forum sorry thats just my opinion.im not here to critisize the modders that work hard to make scenarios for our enjoyment.