The Desert and the Mountain - Empires of Africa

[Plotinus]

Cool! Do both!

 

[Mentat]

Ok my other computer is occupied atm., so no screenies for now.
But as soon as I have control over it, you shall receive both, screenshots and files.

Since I am bored now I will outlay the techtree anyway (got it on a sheet of paper right at my site; I know thats quite antique, but well ...)

I used the same followup techtree as for all the other factions btw.


Seafaring (Arabian Galley) ---> Sailing (Arabian Dhow) ---> Sea Trade [Muslim Scolarship] (Port +1 Trade) ---> Piracy [Gunpowder] (Arabian Corsair)
--------------------------------^--------------------------------------------^-------------------------------^
Fishing (Port +1 Food) -----------'---------------------------------------------l--------------------------------l
------------------- Sharia (Qadi) ----------- Succession (Caliphat) .------------l--------------------------------l-- Ottoman Contact (Musketman)
-----------------------.l-------------------------l------------------------------l-------------------------------'------,--l
Islam (Mosque) ---> Hadith (Imam House) ---> Koran Schools (Madrasa) ---> Muslim Scolarship (Islamic University) ---> Gunpowder (Cannon)
-------------------------------,-----------------^------l
Local Trade (Bazaar) ---> Foreign Trade (Halberdiers)-----'--------------------------> Fanatism (Bowman) ---> Assassin Order (Assassin)
------------------------------V-----------------------------------------------------------V
Military Tradition -------> Slavery (Slavequaters) ---> Mercenaries (Sanhaja Raider) ---> The Gaziya (Arabian Knight) ---> Camelriders (Mamluks)
(Spearman, Swordman, Ansar Warrior)

So whats new besides the Techs?

a.) Arab Knight (I would even call it "Saracen Faris"), which can be seen as the follow up mounted Unit after the Ansar Warrior.
So if we use the Arab Knight for the Arab factiosn, we need a new mounted unit for the Nubians!!! The Ansar Warior would be one possibility, but I'd ratehr use it for the Fatimids as UU.
b.) Camels as a resource to build Sanhaja and Mamluks
c.) To build Mamluks one also needs Slavequaters in the respective City
c.) Building "Quadi" to lower corruption
d.) Fishing Port (+1 Food per square) and Trade Port (+1 trade per square, it also upgrades ships)
e.) Dhows and Corsairs can transport 2 Units now.
f.) The slavequaters, produce African slaves(one every x turns), require tribes as ressource or even in the city radius.
g.) One final idea for now. The number of Imam houses could be limited to some degree, but the Imams could be leaders of a single Unit, to strenghten it. So its a minor Army that can only hold 1 unit. e.g. Imam plus Arabian Swordman. Some changes to the Imams stats could be useful in this case.

Whats missing?

a.) Maybe a Wonder or two for the arabians to build (Mainly great mosques come to my mind atm.)
b.) A real Aim for the Arabian factions (Maybe the succession wars or vicotry points through who controls most of the holy cities e.g. Macca, Madina, Dimasq, Al Quds[Jerusalem], etc.)
c.) Maybe a bigger map???
d.) Maybe a Berber unit for the Maghrebinian Arabs and a Beduine Unit for the Yemenites
e.) Maybe one or two more Arab factions for the succession war (fatimids?)

 

[T.A JONES]

Just want to say your additions are appreciated Mentat and Platinus youve done it again, thanks for another great scenario, soundtrack and 100% complete pedia to deepen my knowledge in world history.

 

[Plotinus]

[Mentat] Wow! These ideas look really interesting. In fact, I think it may well be possible to make all the Arabian civilisations playable with this tech tree. That would be fun - especially to have a go as the Ayyubids, although it wouldn't exactly be balanced!

I'm thinking that if I did that I might give them a special Spaceship victory route, but with major mosques or other Muslim buildings rather than spaceship parts. That way even Yemen would have a chance of victory.

It might be interesting to add the Fatimids, perhaps as a very small civ in between the Hafsids and the Ayyubids, who would have to try to conquer their neighbours rather as the Falasha do.

Naturally all this will slow down the release of the update! But it might be worth it. There would have to be a lot of testing to check that things don't get unbalanced.

 

[Mentat]

Aye, spaceship victory could well be it for the Arabian factions.

A few more things came to my mind:

a.) If you add the Fatimids, they could be in a (locked?) war with the ascending Ayyubids and struggle over control of Egypt. At the start the Fatimids should hold entire Egypt and Palestine, the Ayyubids taking over city after city in the war (maybe a bit like Axum vs Falasha).

b.) If you add important mosques for either space race, or/and wonders, their location should be the only cities, where the arabian factions can build universities!

c.) The Arabian knight should be a special unit. I picture it as a fast unit, with a strong attack, maybe even a strong defense, but also -1 Hp. A unit that rather flees after a gaziya then getting killed.

So maybe something like that:
Arabian Knight (needs Horses and Iron)
A:4 D:3 M:3 HP:-1 (can cross the dessert)

on the other hand I would up the Mamluks a bit in reverse
Mamluk (needs Camels and Slavequaters) it could be exclusive for Fatimids and Ayyubids
A:5 D:2 M:2 HP:+1 (can cross the dessert)

Berber and Beduine Camelriders (need Camels and ?)
A:5 D:2 M:3 HP:0 (can cross the dessert)

Ansar warrior: (needs horses)
A:3 D:2 M:2 HP:-1

I am not 100% sure about the actual strenght given to the (Arab) Musketman. Sometimes I feel they are too strong in the attack, but well ....

 

[Plotinus]

I think I'd make the Mamluk the UU for the Ayyubids. If I make the Arabian civs playable, they would each need a UU in any case. I hope there are enough Arabian-type units knocking around already to do this, as I don't want to add more to the list of units that I have to make!

I don't know if having a locked war between the Ayyubids and the Fatimids would work, but it could be good fun and add a whole new dimension to the scenario. Yes, I envisage that the Fatimids would be very much on the back foot here. The Ayyubids might start with a couple of cities in the west of Egypt and have to conquer their way through Fatimid territory. The important thing, though, is that the Ayyubids should still be a big threat to the Nubians and others to the south - I wouldn't want this idea to disrupt the balance that's already set up.

If I make the Arabian factions playable, it would be fun to add some Europeans to the mix. I'm thinking of giving the Europeans just a single city on an island (Venice?) and letting them send lots of Hidden Nationality ships and troops (Crusaders!) into Africa and the Middle East. That would add an interesting challenge to the northern Arabian civs, especially if I can use invisible resources to persuade the Europeans to focus their attacks on Jerusalem. I'd give the Hafsids a naval UU (also Hidden Nationality) so they would be especially well placed to engage in jolly piratical endeavours in the Mediterranean.

 

[beboy]

I hope there are enough Arabian-type units knocking around already to do this, as I don't want to add more to the list of units that I have to make!

Well, you can always use fantasy units of mid-eastern style made by Utahjazz7 (Easterling & Harad Swordsman) and CamJH (Aiel Pack..) for instance..

By the way, all those ideas with arabian civs sound great! I will be willing to wait some extra time for the release if it can be doable.

 

[Plotinus]

[beboy] Yes, those are good unit ideas. I think there will be enough.

On reflection, I'm thinking that a good victory condition for the Arabian civs would be the establishment of a unifying caliphate. Something like "Universal Caliphate", recognised by all Muslims. This would be a one-build Spaceship victory, so building it would bring instant victory. But to build it, you'd need a number of resources - incense for one, and perhaps a Scholar resource and a few more like that. Of course these would be scattered all over the place, especially in key locations such as Jerusalem and Mecca. So the player would have to negotiate with the other Arabian civs or conquer them to have a chance of building the caliphate. I think this would be a nice way of representing the dynastic struggles of the period.

 

[Mentat]

Whoah, this sounds all great to me now.

Something like an all recognized Caliphat is truely an aim to go for the arabian factions. I also like the idea about the European crusaders. The Question is, will the actual map be enought to feature all this ideas?

How about doing a map with the Sahel(just as it is now), the Mediterranean (Spain, Baleares, Italy, Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, Malta, Dalmatian coast [for Venice], Greece and Greek Islands, Cyprus, Asia Minor, Levante), Arabia(entire), Mideast at least to the Zagros.

Would be a lot fo work, but well worth it. If we would keep up the energy, some reflections of the crusades and the reconqista would be possible too.
Aswell as the fall of Byzantine and the rise of the Ottomans, ... But then isn't that too much already??? It sure sounds awesome though.

 

[Plotinus]

I think all of that would be too much for this scenario - I don't want to lose the African focus. Besides which, there are already plenty of scenarios on Byzantium, the Crusades, and so on. I'm thinking that it would be fun to have just one or two European cities sending ships and troops to harass the various Arabian powers, but very much as a peripheral thing. That would be pretty interesting in itself (the Crusades from the other point of view, as it were). But once you start putting in full European civilisations, the whole thing would be changed too much. The scope of the scenario is pretty vast even as it is (despite the relatively small map) so I don't really want to extend it. I don't want to add Iberia either. Obviously if Morocco is going to be playable then that would kind of suggest that Iberia ought to be in there one way or another, but that would open things up too much once more.

It's rather like the problem faced by the Roman empire (and indeed every empire since, including the British one): conquer one lot of barbarians, and suddenly you've expanded your borders so that you're right next to another lot of barbarians who have to be conquered too. In this case, every time you expand your scenario to include another civ, you suddenly have to implement the civs beyond it too! But that's a tendency I want to resist where possible. I think the "raiding Europeans" idea would help to add flavour and give the impression of Europe's presence and importance without detracting from the African focus of the scenario as it stands.

But all ideas for this and any other alterations are much welcomed. The more the merrier - I'd like to make this as good a scenario as I can!

 

[Mentat]

Aye, I think you are right, there should be limits to the expansion.

Uh, I got your point by quoting the Romano and British Empire dilemmas, but one shouldn't be too hasty with the term "barbarian". Most historic facts show, that both Empires (Roman and British) were more barbaric in their outline then most of the conquered/occupied regions/nations. But don't get me wrong, its also a fact that both empires sustained their power but accumulating the advances of other cultures. This is also true for the early Arabian Caliphates, which drew most cultural power out of the ancient culture groups in the Mideast and Northafrica.

A few more additions.

Regarding the Fatimids and Ayyubids.
The Ayyubids should rather start with conquering the North of the Levante.
They have derived from the Zengids (Kurdish dynasty as the later formed Ayyubids, Sal ad'Din was a Zengid general) who were located in North Iraq and Syria and swept West and South during the Crusades. As far as I know the Struggle between the Crusaders and Fatimites made it easy for Sal ad'Din to take control over the Levante and Eqypt forming the Ayyubid dynasty, which later also took control of most parts of Arabia.

UU for the Arabian factions:
Almoravids: Berber camelrider
Hafsids (Zirids?, Almohads?): Pirate ship (hidden nationality)
Fatimids: Either the Ansar Warrior or maybe even the Assassins, since Fatimids and Assassins are both of Shia confession.
Ayyubids: Mamluk camelrider
Yemenites: Bedouin camelrider

ad Fatimids: Maybe they get an early form of the Assassins, or a smallwonder spiting out Assassins every now and then

 

[Plotinus]

OK - I have to say I don't know an enormous amount about the history of the Muslim dynasties of this period, so I will have to look it all up! Thanks very much for the info.

Of course, when I say "barbarians" I'm just saying it from the point of view of the Romans/British/whatever - obviously most of these peoples were just as civilised as those who conquered them, but they had weaker armies.

 

[Virote_Considon]

How 'bout the European civ could be "Portugal" (The 1st European civilization to set up trading colonies in Africa). They would start with a couple of small 1-2 tile islands (you could just take the ones out of the AoD Conquest), and they could have one small town on the Atlantic coast and another on the East coast.

They could also fill the role of the previous Ayyubids- the powerful, unplayable civ, with dummy techs for AI use only.

 

[Mentat]

How 'bout the European civ could be "Portugal" (The 1st European civilization to set up trading colonies in Africa). They would start with a couple of small 1-2 tile islands (you could just take the ones out of the AoD Conquest), and they could have one small town on the Atlantic coast and another on the East coast.

They could also fill the role of the previous Ayyubids- the powerful, unplayable civ, with dummy techs for AI use only.

Well its naturally up to Plotinus, but I see potential in this idea.
Portugal would have to be an additional faction though, since I really liked the idea about the Crusaders and Venice. Portugal would have to undergo a long period of stagnation (dummy techs) until they finally hit seafaring and gunpowder and sail south. It also makes perfect sense when they finally get in contact with Ethiopia, since IIRC they saved them from Adal attacks.

But how do the sail around the cape? ..... There we have a big problem, since if they would cross country through the sahel, it wouldn't look very pretty.

Ah well, installing a second Outpost on the eastcoast? This could be the island Sokotra for example. But I fear that Adal, Ayyubids and Yemen would hit(find) this place in no time, and simply overrun it. Nah, also not very pretty.

Hmm, .... and one more thing, Portugal wouldn't be important for the African continent until about 1450 (exept for the Marocco expeditions, which are also of questionable importance), which is already close to the end of "the Desert and the Mountain".

 

[Plotinus]

I like the Portugal idea. Although I'm not sure it would fit in with what we've got already. After all, the Ethiopians can research Portuguese Contact near the end of their tech tree to get gunpowder units, and clearly this would be daft if they've already sent a unit west and met the Portuguese anyway. I do quite like the idea of having them sail down the west coast late in the game and potentially present a problem to the civs there, although in real life they didn't really interfere much with the civs in this game - they went further and messed up Kongo and Angola instead. Benin largely shut them out. So perhaps it wouldn't help the game so much. And, yes, if they start trekking across Africa it wouldn't be good (it's bad enough that the African civs do that!). Anyway, I'll have a tinker and see what works.

I won't be able to start implementing any of this for a couple of weeks (busy!) but I'm hoping that over my forthcoming holiday I'll be able to sort out the mechanics of the new ideas and continue to add new units and other graphics. The scenario already looks quite a bit nicer than it did at the start - those Mayan javelin throwers were the first to go!

 

[Mentat]

Do you want me to help you with some things Plotinus?
I can do some research (incl. pictures and info) regarding important mosques of the time if you want me to. I would also check out which of those great mosques were later combined with a islamic university.

I do have some 14 days left before my free time will be reduced considerably.
But I also owe another CIV project quite a lot of work (namely Flamands and Thorgimms ST Mod).

Of course I will be available for any kind of playtesting the advanced mod.

 

[Plotinus]

Thanks for the offer, Mentat. I'm thinking that I'll implement the one-stage SS victory, as it were, so I won't use important mosques as part of the victory. But it would be useful to have ideas for Wonders, or indeed anything else that would be relevant to these civs. So anything you can find will be much appreciated.

Still, don't skimp on your work for Flamand and Thorgrimm! I can probably handle most of the implementation myself (when I get a bit of time to do so). Playtesting will definitely be extremely useful when it comes to it, though.

 

[Ghafhi]

Not too shabby but not to great, I rate it a 5.5 out of 10, for you leaving out more than half of the continent. What time place is this, it seems to be very historically inaccurate. For one there has never been a force in africa prior to modeern times able to topple the ethiopian government, heck they never lost a war and beat Italy twice even when they were backed by the Nazi even though Italy did occupy most of the country for 4 years in the 1930s-40.
Secondly the Youraba/fulani empire who pretty much controlled the largest empire in african history so why are they not in here? it is within your time frame. Furthermore, how could you forget great zimbabwe, benin, kongo, rowzi, and zululand.

What you have done is the equivalent of making an europe scenario with Portugal, Spain, Italy and Yugoslavia

 

[T.A JONES]

Not too shabby but not to great, I rate it a 5.5 out of 10, for you leaving out more than half of the continent.

Bro if this gets a 5 then the Civ4 Warlords Romans empire rewash/realwaste, remake of the Civ3 version I just tryed playing isn't even registering on the scale.

This guy works on his own free time and delivers the goods and I look at what the "pros' are doing with their time and wonder what the hell your smoking, This is A1 baby and bout to get better, However, im sure the designer has a historical expanation for not includin the entire map. I do agree with you though on that second line you quoted. Its would be much nicer if we could have filled out some more of the safari land

 

[beboy]

Not too shabby but not to great, I rate it a 5.5 out of 10, for you leaving out more than half of the continent. What time place is this, it seems to be very historically inaccurate.

Well, I must admit I don't agree with most of your remarks since the aim of this scenario, in my understanding, is not about the history of the whole African continent. It's rather about the complex relationship of North African Civilizations who embraced abrahamic religions (Christianism, Judaism ans Islam), with a special focus on muslim Civilisations. This take place mostly during Middle-Age; if I'm not mistaken, Fulani ruled Western Africa in the 19th century. Benin is there but non-playable and most of the others civs from your list are from southern Africa. Of course, in some cases, widely described earlier in this thread, history had to be tweaked to fit with gameplay. The result is IMO one of the best scenario ever made for CIV3, both on the gameplay side and historical accuracy (at least for the neophyte I am in African history).

Without that scenario, I wouldn't have had the motivation to persist in my modding attempts. Plotinus is "the" reference in scenario making