The Dutch/Spanish/Portuguese

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Gainy bo


Explain... I was under the impression that Hiratio (sp)Nelson lead the British to victory, sinking the Spanish armada. What happened?



How so? Due to the formation of the United states? Explain

Again, thanks all.

The Spanish Armada was a very unfotunate expedition. Philip II apointed Duke of Medina Sidonia (a guy with almost not naval experience) as commander of the expedition. The idea was to carry troops to land in England and conquer it. The english didn't really made a great battle against the spanish armada and sank it. It was more like skirmishes hostigating the spanish armada taken the advantage of being faster ships (many of the spanish ships were cargo ships carrying land troops). The spanish armada couldn't make it to land, and just rounded Britain and Ireland and came back to Spain. In the journey they lost some ships due to the british and many others due to storms (and combination of both: spanish ships were scattered due to storms, and when ships with no or little fire power were isolated the british could capture them easily).


On the independence of America from Spain it was not related to the formation of the USA (well, at least it was not the main point. Spain sold some territories to the USA and the USA supported the independence of America from European colonial powers, but this was not the main reason).

The first attempt of independence was when Napoleon took power in Spain in 1808. The american colonies didn't accept the new king and declared themselves independent. When the independence war against Napoleon was over (1814), the spanish king returned and American territories came part of Spain again, but there was already a big desire to become independent. So, some years after the future american countries start wars of independence. Colombia, Argentina, Mexico, etc, became independent (I think the first one was in 1820, the rest was like a chain reaction). Spain was able to mantain only Cuba and Filipinas, which were lost in a war with USA in 1898.

 

[raen]

Originally posted by luiz
On the Portuguese Decadance

Many factors contributed to the downfall of what was once the greatest power on Earth.
To understand the decadence of Portugal, we must understand why it was such a power in the first place.

In the late XIVth century, Porugal was a solid and unified kingdom, unlike the rest of Europe. This gave them the necessary condition to, in the next 2 centurys, engage in the great navigations.
The portuguses sailors were complete pioneers, they were the first to pass through the Cape of Good Hope and to circunavigate the Earth.
They stablished severall colonies in the coast of Africa(they even captured an important muslim outpost, Ceuta), and had the monopoly of the trade with India. They even conquered some important indian cities.
This monopoly gave great profits to Portugal, and was the main responsible for the maintanance of the portuguese supremacy.

When the monopoly was lost, due to the expansion of other colonial powers, Portugal suffered a great deal.
Another hard time for Portugal came with the Iberian Union, when the country was effectively rule by Spain(albei the promiss made by the spanish to king to rule Portugal as a separate country).

But in the long term, what made Portugal loose completely it's power was the complete dependency it had of it's colonys, especially Brazil. When gold and diamonds were discovered in Brazil, their exploration was basically the only source of wealth of the portuguese kingdom. Unlike England and France(and much like Spain), Portugal did not devellop manufactorys. This made Portugal to be always importing goods from England, and to be always in debt. This is the reason why most of the Brazilian gold is today in England.

So mercantilism was ultimately what caused the downfall of Portugal. They believed that by simpling having lots of gold they would be powerfull. They were terribly wrong.
Portugal became one of the poorest nations of Western Europe(if not the poorest) and literally millions of portuguses immigrants came to Brazil(Rio has more portugueses then any city in Portugal, with the exception of Lisbon).
The situation improved a great deal after Portugal joined the EU, and keeps improving.

Well explained Luiz I couldn´t explain it better

Originally posted by Gain Bo

Could you (or anyone else) elaborate on this please? I don't know anything about the "Iberian Union".

All Hapenned When The Portuguese lost their king in 1578 (D. Sebastião), in the last crusade in Ceuta. Because Portugal was Without a King (this king was very young, he had no sons yet...and no close family, his uncle died two years later...) the Spanish got the throne by force with their army.
This turned Portuguese expansion much more dificult, now the Spanish had control of Portuguese colonies, they couldnt control it all, but they allied with the French and the enemy natives in Brasil to dificult Portuguese comercialization.

Portugal had no enemys, but because of the iberian union The French, the English and the Dutch became Portuguese Enemys (they were regular enemys of Spain...)

Only in 1640 Portuguese gained control of Portugal with the Help of the English and the Dutch. Portuguese already had a king But of Course spain not accepted this separation.

Resuming, Many years passed, Portuguese lost most of their power... And all because of the search of Glory and Fame of a yound King, that gone to battle and disappeared. Portugal went to a phase known as "Sebastianism" waiting for the king´s return, whos body was never found!!

Here is his foto:

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by luiz

The portuguses sailors were complete pioneers, they were the first to pass through the Cape of Good Hope and to circunavigate the Earth.

That's not all true

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/Magellan.CP.html

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by Jorge


The Spanish Armada was a very unfotunate expedition. Philip II apointed Duke of Medina Sidonia (a guy with almost not naval experience) as commander of the expedition. The idea was to carry troops to land in England and conquer it. The english didn't really made a great battle against the spanish armada and sank it. It was more like skirmishes hostigating the spanish armada taken the advantage of being faster ships (many of the spanish ships were cargo ships carrying land troops). The spanish armada couldn't make it to land, and just rounded Britain and Ireland and came back to Spain. In the journey they lost some ships due to the british and many others due to storms (and combination of both: spanish ships were scattered due to storms, and when ships with no or little fire power were isolated the british could capture them easily).

Appearently, you do not know the role of Dutch navy in this battle. Here we learn it is one of the greatest acheivements of the Dutch navy....

 

[raen]

Originally posted by Jorge


That's not all true

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/Magellan.CP.html

I think you forgot this early Portuguese Sailors

Bartolomeu Dias:

http://www.esd.k12.ca.us/Matsumoto/TM30/history/Explorers/dias.html

Pedro Álvares Cabral:

http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=635

Vasco da Gama:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1497degama.html

 

[Benderino]

Originally posted by Jorge
Benderino makes a good description about the spanish case (although is untrue that the british navy sank the spanish armada)

The English paid a big role in the destruction (though nature helped too). All ships were dispatched (including fishermenships) and it was such a glorious battle in the eyes of the English.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

To the question at hand, I think ultimately it's because Portugal and Holland were simply too 'small' to support their overseas colonial ventures for long, vis-a-vis the other European powers (once they really began to muscle in on it), and compete nationally at home, vis-a-vis their European neighbours, at the same time. There's also the point of natives, esp in Asia, learning to deal with the Europeans (like the Siamese, playing off the British against the French). All it took was one or two or small setbacks and they'd be out of the picture much.

Which was why they're later eventually overtaken by the much larger nations of France and England.

The same could be said of when Britain and France were overtaken later by the USA and the Soviet Union, after WW2. Size matters, when all else is more or less equal.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Stapel


Appearently, you do not know the role of Dutch navy in this battle. Here we learn it is one of the greatest acheivements of the Dutch navy....

All that I know is that there were Dutch ships creating problems to the spanish, but I don't know how much damage they made.

It's difficult to find reliable sources. Spanish sources blame the weather and the lack of experience of Duke Medina Sinonia among other things. The british think it was a major victory due to their navy, and now I learn that the Dutch also claim a good part of the victory.

Just take a look at this web site (one I found in english).

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/spanish_armada.htm

They don't even mention the dutch navy, and more or less say that the british navy didn't make too much damage to the spanish fllet, although they efficiently prevented the spanish from going back to the english channel and land.

Maybe you can provide some information about the dutch navy role in all this.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by raen


I think you forgot this early Portuguese Sailors

Bartolomeu Dias:

http://www.esd.k12.ca.us/Matsumoto/TM30/history/Explorers/dias.html

Pedro Álvares Cabral:

http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=635

Vasco da Gama:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1497degama.html

Yes, but none of them was the first in circumnavigate the earth as luiz said.

 

[Lord_Sidious]

Yes but Magallean was Portuguese

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Rolo Master
Tes but Magallean was Portuguese

But he was commanding spanish ships and it was an expedition for the king of Spain. Besides, he died before completing the circumnavigation, and it was Juan Sebastian El Cano who commanded the last part of the expedition.

For these reasons I think the sentence "the portuguese were the first in circumnavigate the earth" is not true.

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by Jorge
Maybe you can provide some information about the dutch navy role in all this.

A Chronology of the Spanish Armada


1584 Philip II of Spain appoints the Marquis of Santa Cruz as Captain General of the Ocean Sea.
1585 Philip II considers the possibility of invading England.
1586 Philip II invites The Marquis of Santa Cruz to prepare an invasion plan.
1586 Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, nominates Philip II as her successor to the English throne.
1587 February
Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, is executed after being found guilty of plotting to overthrow Elizabeth I .
April-June Sir Franis Drake raids Cadiz and other coastal towns in Spain, sinking and capturing around 30 Spanish ships and destroying supplies, delaying the Armada preparations.
September The Duke of Parma assembles an invading fore in the Netherlands.
Philip II issues instrutions for the invasion of England.

December Philip II direts the Marquis of Santa Cruz to assemble ships for the Armada and to get them ready to sail as soon as possible.
After reciving intelligene that the Spanish Armada is preparing to invade England, Elizabeth I mobilies the English Fleet.

1588 January The English Fleet is reduced in strength when reports are recived that the Armada is not yet ready to sail.
February The Marquis of Santa Cruz dies. Philip II appoints the Duke of Medina Sidonia as the new commander of the Armada.
28th-30th May The Spanish Armada sets sail from Lisbon.
2nd June Lord Admiral Howard's squadron joins Sir Francis Drake's ships at Plymouth.
19th June The Armada makes its way to Corunna to take on supplies of food and drink. During the night the Spanish fleet is scattered by storms.
4th July English ships sent out to locate the Armada.
21st-22nd July The Armada sets sail again.
The English ships return to Plymouth.

29th July The Armada is sighted as it approaches the coast of Cornwall. That evening the Western Squadron makes its way out of Plymouth Sound and into The English Channel.
30th July The Western Squadron manages to get behind the Spanish Armada as it sails slowly towards Plymouth.
31st July The battle near Plymouth. in the afternoon the Rosario loses her foremast in a collision and later the San Salvador catches fire and explodes.
1st August Early in the morning the crippled Rosario is captured by Sir Francis Drake. The badly damaged San Salvador is captured by the English and towed to Weymouth.
2nd August Battle near Portland Bill.
3rd August Sea fights take place off the Needles, as ships approach The Isle of Wight.
4th August The battle near the Isle of Wight.
5th August The Armada, closely followed by the Western Squadron, sails towards the Straits of Dover.
6th August Ships of the Spanish Armada and the Western Squadron anchor near Calais. The Western Squadron is joined by Lord Henry Seymour's Narrow Seas Squadron.
7-8th August Late in the evening the English launch a fireship attack against the anchored Spanish Fleet. The Spanish cut their anchor cables and scatter to avoid the fireships.
8th August The Battle off Gravelines. At least one ship is sunk and another is stranded at Calais. Three ships are later captured by the Dutch.
9th August Ships of the Spanish Armada face danger as they are driven by the wind and tide towards the Flemish sandbanks.
Just after mid-day, the wind direction changes and the Armada is able to sail northwards.

10-11th August English ships pursue the Armada as it sails northwards.
Hearing that the Duke of Parma's invasion force is ready to embark, Seymour's Narrow Seas Squadron returns to the English Channel.

12th August English ships pursueing the Armada, give up the chase and return to English ports.
13th August The Duke of Medina Sidonia, Commander of the Armada, orders the remaining ships in his fleet to sail round Scotland and make for Spain.
18th August Elizabeth I reviews her troops at Tilbury and makes her famous 'I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman' speech.
21st August The Armada breaks up as it rounds the coast of Scotland and enters the Atlantic.
1-21st September Bad weather forces a number of the Spanish ships on to the coast of Ireland, where many are wrecked.
22nd September- 14th October Surviving ships of the Armada reach Spain.

 

[jack merchant]

A more important contribution of Dutch shipping was that they had many ships with a shallow draft, i.e. capable of navigating the undeep waters just off the coast. Lacking access to a deep-water port, the mainland army of Parma which was supposed to be carried over by the Armada could never have met it at sea since the Dutch controlled the shoreline.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by Jorge


Yes, but none of them was the first in circumnavigate the earth as luiz said.

Vasco da Gama did.(I believe)

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Vasco da Gama was the first to round the Cape of Good Hope and reach India in 1498; not the first to circumnavigate the world IIRC...

 

[luiz]

You're probably right XIII...
The first to circumnavigate the Earth must have beign Magellan then(who was also a portuguese).

 

[Thorgalaeg]

No again. Read Jorge´s post. Magellan died at Filipinas, fighting against indigenous from Mactan island when he tried to impose the Spanish sovereignty over them.

Indeed was Juan Sebastian Elcano the first in circumnavigate the world.

 

[Sims2789]

Originally posted by Margim
As far as I'm aware, aside from their minor holdings the Dutch had in the Caribbean, their major colonies were South Africa and Indonesia....

they also had part of what is now the United States. they owned New York as well as some of what were used to be known as the "Middle Colonies."

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/kingston/colonization.htm

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by luiz
You're probably right XIII...
The first to circumnavigate the Earth must have beign Magellan then(who was also a portuguese).

Actually, the Chinese circumnavigated the world in 1421(and found the Americas, although they didn't settle)...

 

[hookmonkey]

No your wrong, neanderthalers circumnavigated around the world first!