The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)

[voek]

I think it is interesting to look into Brennus research preference. Someone knows where to find this. The AI in general tends to priortize optics, but this depends a little on the type of leader/civ. Brennus isn't teching very fast, so depending on him to research the optics path, might be not a good idea if you want to get optics fast and meet the others. CS most of the time is the better option imo, but in this case I tend to go optics first. Burn the GE on machinery.

I would put the NE in W DC. Almost alyways the capital is the wondercity and generating a nice amount of GP points. The point of NE is to maximize GP points. In my games I only build the NE in a other city if build the Great Libary in a other city. This way I get a GS farm and the capital for some other GP's. You want to maximize the free GS in Washington, so put the NE there. Sure it causes pollution, but this isn't always bad. It means you can't count (you rarely can anyway) on a certain GP. But almost every GP has it uses, so in this case. More/faster is better. I would build the NE before the marketplace. You have marble making it a bargain. The pollution is already going on so the extra artist is just a small extra risk. I would rather benefit from the extra GP points.

Good point for the vazal option from Sal to Brenus. That would be terrrible. Try to bribe him. You only need two more city's, right? But I think the chances are actualy pretty high if Sal converted to judism too, he will knock at Brennus door. You are right in this version the AI cannot make a sound decision in this matter. I think they will always 'accept' a vazal even if this isn't in their own best interest.

Isn't it time to claim the stone in the North West btw?

 

[cabert]

Metal casting is much cheaper than CS.
you could have machinery in just a few turns + forges are good for happiness when you have gems

 

[aelf]

Hmm... So should we postpone Bureaucracy and its commerce bonus? I need more votes on that issue. CS first or Optics first?

By the way, Mecca came with an Academy, so it could be our science city in the future (Oxford site). That would free up our GS (assuming we get one soon) to lightbulb Education. Or should we build an Academy in Washington too?

 

[cabert]

Hmm... So should we postpone Bureaucracy and its commerce bonus? I need more votes on that issue. CS first or Optics first?

By the way, Mecca came with an Academy, so it could be our science city in the future (Oxford site). That would free up our GS (assuming we get one soon) to lightbulb Education. Or should we build an Academy in Washington too?

I'm not voting here, just stating what I would do.
I like granary + forge everywhere : whipping material.

If you don't go for metal casting soon, you could settle the GE.
I don't like having those guys standing there.

Did you notice you could capture Great Persons in warlords?
It happened to me once

 

[Godel]

We, on the other hand, will probably beeline for Liberalism and can hence switch to Free Religion for better relaions (which would also remove the 'don't want to fight brothers of the faith' unhappiness from our cities when we declare war on Brennus).

Unhappiness caused by "We don't want to fight brothers of the faith" may still be present in cities that have the same state religion as the civ you are warring against, even if you are running Free Religion. Sometimes this unhappiness isn't present if the city is small.

 

[carl corey]

Did you notice you could capture Great Persons in warlords?
It happened to me once

Wow, I so didn't know that! That can make things really interesting. Sneak attacks just to capture a GP. Hmm... Though if it's the same thing as with workers, you won't be able to move the GP on the same turn, so you actually have to hold the city at least for that turn.

 

[cabert]

Wow, I so didn't know that! That can make things really interesting. Sneak attacks just to capture a GP. Hmm... Though if it's the same thing as with workers, you won't be able to move the GP on the same turn, so you actually have to hold the city at least for that turn.

it happened only once, maybe i'm mistaken.
I'd like someone to confirm...

 

[Godel]

Hmm... So should we postpone Bureaucracy and its commerce bonus? I need more votes on that issue. CS first or Optics first?

By the way, Mecca came with an Academy, so it could be our science city in the future (Oxford site). That would free up our GS (assuming we get one soon) to lightbulb Education. Or should we build an Academy in Washington too?

Hi Aelf,

Have any great generals been born in a far away land? That is often an indicator that the tech rate is slower at least among some of the other civs.

My preference in this situation would be to go optics first. Your screen shots of Washington still show that it is underdeveloped as a commerce city. All I see is one cottage (is it a hamlet yet?). With 8g from the palace and maybe another 8g at most from tiles (river and cottage) , CS will give you at most another 8 raw commerce. You could of course work see tiles. That doesn't include gold from trade (does CS bonus act on trade route income too? - in vanilla CIV I don't think it does, but I think this has changed in warlords).

On the other hand, getting Optics first will allow you to see how the other continent is faring techwise, which will allow you to judge how aggressively you need to be to get Liberalism first.

I'd build NE in Washington since it gives 15gpps per turn, even before hiring a specialist. You can afford to hire two more and still grow. When the GL and ToA are obsolete you will be close to Biology. Cottage up Mecca instead and build oxford there, as you suggest, to free the use of a GS for education if need be. Mecca also has gems to kick start the commerce. The food surplus there can be used to cottage plains tiles, rush infrastructure and hire scientists once oxford is built.

Don't use the GE on the Colossus. You have copper and are industrious. If you can, build it in Washington for the gpps, but only after the NE. A couple of quick GPs could help you a lot atm. If you miss out on the Colussus, that is no big deal - it will be obsolete soon anyway.

 

[UncleJJ]

Hi Aelf,
<snip>
Your screen shots of Washington still show that it is underdeveloped as a commerce city. All I see is one cottage (is it a hamlet yet?). With 8g from the palace and maybe another 8g at most from tiles (river and cottage) , CS will give you at most another 8 raw commerce. You could of course work see tiles. That doesn't include gold from trade (does CS bonus act on trade route income too? - in vanilla CIV I don't think it does, but I think this has changed in warlords).

Bureaucracy affects all sources of commerce, and trade routes are just commerce. To fully develop the potential of the trade route theme that this challenge is all about we really need 3 more things; Bureaucracy (+50% commerce), Harbours (+50% trade) and then Astronomy = overseas trade routes to other continent which could be better than Brennus. Add a castle to that for another trade route and Washigton will be close to its maximum commercial potential.

Washington suffers at present from relatively low food (+5 now) and low hammers so I vote for chain irrigating the 2 grassland farms rather than building cottages. By all means cottage up some of the plains squares and work either those giving 1F1HxC or the coastal tiles for 2F2C part time. But food is at a premium and so work the (then) 3 grassland farms to recover from . Apply the overflow hammers to building any other wonders (the overflow gets the Bureaucracy, forge, Industrious, OR and stone/marble bonuses). That extra food will increase the productivity in hammers and allow running some scientists part of the time for their GPP once the NE is built. To fully exploit the trade route theme Washigton needs more food and hammers rather than simple commerce from grassland cottages.

Health could become a limit on growth on this island (with no rice or wheat or cows). A harbour with clams and fish will help Washington grow further but Brennus has sheep and plenty of deer (trade or conquest). I just noticed that we have a sheep south of Washington outside the fat cross... that could be pastured for Until the health situation is cleared up I recommend keeping the 2 forests in Washington.

On the other hand, getting Optics first will allow you to see how the other continent is faring techwise, which will allow you to judge how aggressively you need to be to get Liberalism first.

Optics is a high priority tech and that does include Compass implicitly, but we have so many important techs right now all conflicting and drawing our research all over the place... CS, Metal Working, Machinery, Engineering (for Castles and Trebuchets) as well as Optics. And then there is the Liberalism race = Philosophy, Paper,Education and Liberalism. So many options poor aelf will never be able to please all of us and our competing ideas

I'd build NE in Washington since it gives 15gpps per turn, even before hiring a specialist. You can afford to hire two more and still grow. When the GL and ToA are obsolete you will be close to Biology. Cottage up Mecca instead and build oxford there, as you suggest, to free the use of a GS for education if need be. Mecca also has gems to kick start the commerce. The food surplus there can be used to cottage plains tiles, rush infrastructure and hire scientists once oxford is built.

Don't use the GE on the Colossus. You have copper and are industrious. If you can, build it in Washington for the gpps, but only after the NE. A couple of quick GPs could help you a lot atm. If you miss out on the Colussus, that is no big deal - it will be obsolete soon anyway.

Agree with most of this. Actually, Washington has 17 GPP now so the NE would add one and then double the total for 36 GPP/turn which is quite a good rate. Our next GP only needs 400, so we'd be getting them evey 12 turns + 3 turns per GP produced even without other wonders or food specialists. Unfortunately, Colossus has already been built overseas somewhere.

 

[aelf]

Excellent points by UncleJJ, especially regarding health (which has so far been forgotten) and the Bureaucracy bonus. Thanks!

I think what we should do is research MC next. Yes, I'm convinced CS is a bit too expensive right now and forges would increase our happiness cap so our cities can grow larger sooner = more scientific power to research CS with.

Next, we should still not go for CS but research Compass. Bureaucracy increases our trade route commerce by 50% in Washington, but so does a harbour. And Compass takes less than half the time needed to research CS.

Then, we should use the GE to lightbulb Machinery and research Optics in an effort to win the circumnavigation bonus. Once that is done, we can whip a caravel each in Boston and Washington and finally start researching CS. What do you think of this plan?

I agree with building an NE next in Washington. Getting GPs earlier might help us lightbulb another tech or two along the way, which is important in helping us win these races.

 

[Godel]

Good point about a harbour having almost the same commerce effect in Washington as Bureaucracy. A forge will have (almost) the same impact with production. But it opens up these buildings empire wide.

Of course, it is always possible to research Astronomy directly without going down the Liberalism route. You will get Astronomy considerably sooner (unless you get lucky with the right GPs for lightbulbing). Not only would this be keeping with the trade theme, but it really makes better use of the Great LH. Overall, it is not as efficient tech wise though (assuming you get to Lib first). I'm not sure I would do it myself - just throwing in another angle for consideration.

 

[patagonia]

Good point about a harbour having almost the same commerce effect in Washington as Bureaucracy. A forge will have (almost) the same impact with production. But it opens up these buildings empire wide.

Of course, it is always possible to research Astronomy directly without going down the Liberalism route. You will get Astronomy considerably sooner (unless you get lucky with the right GPs for lightbulbing). Not only would this be keeping with the trade theme, but it really makes better use of the Great LH. Overall, it is not as efficient tech wise though (assuming you get to Lib first). I'm not sure I would do it myself - just throwing in another angle for consideration.

One of the main advantages of being in the Liberalism race is that it forces you to prioritise education for early universities and Oxford, boosting your research. Winning and picking up Free Religion and Astronomy then gives you another +35% as the civic change and observatories come online, which helps even more in keeping pace with the AI.

I agree pretty much with the tech path outlined. Build the NE in Washington whilst researching metal casting, then build forges whilst researching compass, build harbours whilst researching/bulbing Machinery/Optics and build caravels whilst researching CS. It gets you all the techs you want to start on the Liberalism race, hopefully gives you a shot at the circumnavigation bonus and means your big cities always have something useful to build in the meantime.

 

[UncleJJ]

Good point about a harbour having almost the same commerce effect in Washington as Bureaucracy.

I don't think harbours are that good unfortunately. I expect that the one in Washigton will add +50% trade to the +100% we already have from ToA. So I guess we'd get 6 or maybe 7 commerce per trade route with Brennus instead of the current 5. That is still very worthwhile for such a cheap building that also give us a much needed +2 health as a by product.

Bureaucracy on the otherhand will multiply all commerce (trade routes, palace, cottages and other sources) by +50%. In the current situation we have 39 commerce so that'll be +19.5 for Bureaucracy, which is substantially more than the +4 (or maybe +8) we might get for harbours.

 

[cabert]

I don't think harbours are that good unfortunately. I expect that the one in Washigton will add +50% trade to the +100% we already have from ToA. So I guess we'd get 6 or maybe 7 commerce per trade route with Brennus instead of the current 5. That is still very worthwhile for such a cheap building that also give us a much needed +2 health as a by product.

Bureaucracy on the otherhand will multiply all commerce (trade routes, palace, cottages and other sources) by +50%. In the current situation we have 39 commerce so that'll be +19.5 for Bureaucracy, which is substantially more than the +4 (or maybe +8) we might get for harbours.

right!
There really is no point saying that harbour = bureaucracy.

BUT
- you can have the harbour soon (sooner than CS? not sure, you need a tech then time to build the item)
- the tech's on the path to optics = finding other civs will open more tech trading + circum bonus
- it gives you a health bonus (HR = no happiness problems, so health is a topic)

 

[dutchfire]

Are you going to patch the game? Immediately? (it would give you less GE points for the Wall).

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Is the patch out? No. At least I don't see it on the Firaxis web site. Seems like that would make it impossible to patch immediately. I know it's coming soon, but without a good idea of what "soon" actually means, it seems entirely possible that this game could be over before it's truly available.

At any rate, my inclination if it were my own game would be to wait. The balance changes are fairly significant in many cases, and it seems wrong to switch midstream. The AI is also supposed to be substantially improved which might prove troublesome.

 

[carl corey]

Yeah, I don't see the point in changing so many things mid-game. When the patch does come out I'll try to finish all my games before I install it.

 

[Winston Hughes]

3 questions:

Could you include a screenshot of Washington's city-view in the next update? (so those of us who can't load the save can see how the trade routes, etc. are going)

How valuable is the circumnavigation bonus likely to be? I always tend to go for it so I can explore the oceans quicker and sell the useless maps to the AI (on a huge map with 18 civs you can make a lot of money that way), but I'm guessing that isn't the reason for grabbing it here.

Will you be sending a scout (or suchlike) off with your caravel? Or are you relying on the AI trading you a map of the other continent?

 

[Tyrant Roger]

In my GOTM [Warlords, Monarch, Standard] I built or captured all of the trade enhancing wornders and had a large number of coastal cities reaping huge coins in trade. Then my trade economy collapsed suddenly. Only domestic cities to trade with. The three AI's I was trading with all adopted mercantilism. Was this a fluke or did the AI's recognize how important the trade routes were to me?

Is this a real risk that anyone relying on a trade strategy to generate commerce should be concerned about?

 

[patagonia]

In my GOTM [Warlords, Monarch, Standard] I built or captured all of the trade enhancing wornders and had a large number of coastal cities reaping huge coins in trade. Then my trade economy collapsed suddenly. Only domestic cities to trade with. The three AI's I was trading with all adopted mercantilism. Was this a fluke or did the AI's recognize how important the trade routes were to me?

Is this a real risk that anyone relying on a trade strategy to generate commerce should be concerned about?

I get the impression that the AI adopt mercantilism in droves as they all get banking at about the same time. The easiest way to get over that bump to a trade-based economy is to beeline Economics to open up Free Market and then spread it about.