The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)

[aelf]

I don't think there is a likely candidate for a GP farm, so I think the NE should be built in Washington for maximum effect. Unless we're not going to build an NE, I guess.

Anyway, there are a few more things to think about. Signing cease fire and then attacking Saladin immediately would make him unwilling to talk again for some time, thereby prolonging the war. I'm thinking of maybe signing peace with him for now and extort Priesthood and gold. Hence, we get to extort techs now and again later. And we get time to build up some cats we can use to take Medina on the expiry of the peace. Mecca can't work the gems until its borders expand anyway, for which we would have to build/chop a library, and that would take some time. Also, we need time to build a settler to settle one tile west of Damascus. Finally, by getting Priesthood, we can start researching CoL immediately.

However, if we sign peace, we can't recapture and raze Damascus immediately so Saladin might be able to get defenders there. And there's a chance he might be able to tech to longbowmen and put some in Najran (besides just in Medina). Mecca, meanwhile, would be cut off from the rest of the empire, raising costs on our side. If we go with the plan of signing cease fire, we can raze both Damascus and Najran now and pillage Baghdad's gem mines, slowing Saladin's quest to get longbows.

And what about the idea of using the imminent Great General to create a level 5/6 unit immediately (for Heroic Epic and maybe West Point) and giving the unit Medic III? This would also have the effect of helping us shorten our future campaigns. Creating Medic III Warlord units is key to my winning the barb scenario on Prince, where time is of the essence.

 

[MartinhoMukanga]

I think you should build the NE in Washington, because there's no other good spot for a gp farm

 

[patagonia]

And what about the idea of using the imminent Great General to create a level 5/6 unit immediately (for Heroic Epic and maybe West Point) and giving the unit Medic III? This would also have the effect of helping us shorten our future campaigns. Creating Medic III Warlord units is key to my winning the barb scenario on Prince, where time is of the essence.

Definitely use the first GG to create a Medic III unit. Then settle any subsequent ones in the Heroic Epic/West Point city for maximum benefit.

If you do sign a 10 turn peace-treaty with Saladin, make sure you nab all of his gold and all of his GPT too. Then have the cats and city attackers in place for the turn the treaty ends. That'll minimize any longbow problems and hopefully deny him the cheap upgrades the AI benefits from.

 

[illram]

Can you sign a cease fire and extort techs? Or just a cease fire and then gift the city? That way we dont have to wait 10 turns.

I'm just weary of giving sally any more time to get longbows; he was pretty advanced and may be getting there soon, the AI always goes for feudalism.

 

[lilnev]

Absolutely put the NE in Washington. You're already bringing in 15 GPP/turn, with the NE that climbs to 32 even without turning any citizens into specialists.

On the gifting/razing plan, how certain are you that it will work? Maybe you don't have the option to raze if you have any of your people there, and it says 0% just because of a rounding error. Maybe you only get the option to raze the first time you capture a city. I'm not confident enough of the rules to want to try it without setting up a test run in worldbuilder first.

peace,
lilnev

 

[malekithe]

I'd say you almost certainly have a strong enough force to take Medina this turn (or next if, through a run of bad luck, you don't quite finish it this turn) and then march to take Najran in another 5-6 turns. I'd estimate your losses in taking Medina at 5 at the most. Those can all be replaced quickly with the garrisons, scattered troops still in your lands, and a whipped axeman (I'm curious why New York is working on a spearman, I'd change that to an axe and get him out ASAP). So, you'll probably be able to raise a force of ~7 axemen to march on Najran, even after sacking Medina. Hopefully that will be strong enough to take it.

As to the Damascus trick... It could work, but you're taking a risk in delaying the gift until after growing to 2 pop (6 turns) and whipping. As soon as a religion spreads to it, I think, you'll lose the option to raze after gifting. Your call, of course, but I lean in favor of gifting it back right after capturing Medina.

 

[aelf]

Hmm... I'm still not leaning towards capturing Medina and sustaining significant losses in the process. Why do we need the city now? If it was poorly-defended (eg. a CG1 archer and a spear), I would definitely agree with capturing it, but it's not. I sent our stack there to check it out and capture it if possible, but it doesn't look like a great prospect to me now. There must be a reason to justify why we would do it in this situation. As it is, razing Najran seems to be of higher importance to me.

We have to sign peace to extort techs. It's not doable with a cease fire. I'm starting to think signing peace might be a bad idea, though. Too many unknowns that can potentially make things harder for us. The only real benefits are we get to extort tech(s) another time and we can get Priesthood now to start researching CoL.

I think the certainty of a better placed Damascus and getting to pillage Saladin's gem mines to slow him down are probably a better deal. I'm pretty sure we can raze Damascus if we give it back now. The city hasn't grown under our administration. It hasn't gained any culture either. All we did was let it starve and whip half of its population for an axe. But I'll set up a test on Worldbuilder later to confirm this.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

A good idea, but be ready for the Cultural influnence to RETURN to its pre conquest day's, city level and land as well.

Your troops are pushed back to outer limits again, and you have to retrudge or sail back to city, barrage Cultural defence to zero, take and raise city, build another BEFORE Saladin, builds a replacement city on his Culturally influenced lands.

I did this one time invading a 2nd continent, *vanilla civ*, and gifted a captured city back to original owner thinking, "good, keep them off my back while I destroy this civ"...boom, they've swiped 1/2 the lands of the cities I just took, culturally enveloping 2 others I'm holding...and set me back....dumb move billy...

Been said before, and I'll say it again, its the CULTURAL INFLUENCE AND NUMBER OF YEARS OF INFLUENCE that count, not who or what holds it...

 

[aelf]

A good idea, but be ready for the Cultural influnence to RETURN to its pre conquest day's, city level and land as well.

Your troops are pushed back to outer limits again, and you have to retrudge or sail back to city, barrage Cultural defence to zero, take and raise city, build another BEFORE Saladin, builds a replacement city on his Culturally influenced lands.

I did this one time invading a 2nd continent, *vanilla civ*, and gifted a captured city back to original owner thinking, "good, keep them off my back while I destroy this civ"...boom, they've swiped 1/2 the lands of the cities I just took, culturally enveloping 2 others I'm holding...and set me back....dumb move billy...

Been said before, and I'll say it again, its the CULTURAL INFLUENCE AND NUMBER OF YEARS OF INFLUENCE that count, not who or what holds it...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Sure, Damascus will get its culture back and 40% cultural defense. But so what? A unit needs a few turns to get there and just walk into an undefended city. 40% times 0 is still 0. Not frightening at all. I we sign peace and let him have the city for 10 turns or so, though, he might have walked an archer there or whipped one by the time we attack.

 

[UncleJJ]

I looked at your savegame and was surprised by the severe happiness limitations in your cities. You obviously need Monarchy as the main way in the short term to solve that problem. You will have vinyards and enough troops to double the size of most of your cities. I wondered what was your plan to get Monarchy quickly; to trade for it, or research it. If the latter then it should probably be the next tech you go for after currency.

Excellent warmongering so far . And I'm fascinated by how you're handling the Damascus situation and wait with bated breath for the outcome.

 

[aelf]

I looked at your savegame and was surprised by the severe happiness limitations in your cities. You obviously need Monarchy as the main way in the short term to solve that problem. You will have vinyards and enough troops to double the size of most of your cities. I wondered what was your plan to get Monarchy quickly; to trade for it, or research it. If the latter then it should probably be the next tech you go for after currency.

Good point, although the happiness cap is to be expected. Brennus has Monarchy, so maybe we can trade Currency or CoL for it. Should we trade for Calendar now? He wants both Construction and Literature for it. It's not a good deal, but Calendar is very useful for Boston.

 

[sveint]

Honestly you are spending far far too much effort worrying about the "ideal" placement of a single city. Better to leave the city as it is and concentrate on something more productive.

 

[Meatbuster]

Spoiler Posts that make me want to flame :

Honestly you are spending far far too much effort worrying about the "ideal" placement of a single city. Better to leave the city as it is and concentrate on something more productive.

Been said before, and I'll say it again, its the cultural influence and number of years of influence that count, not who or what holds it...

Back to the save at hand, isn't it usually counter-productive to put the NE in the capital? I try my best not to have my capital as the GP farm when possible, freeing it to be a hammer and/or commerce city. Looking at the save you don't seem to have much of a choice at the moment for your NE for now... while it may be good to take advantage of the NE as long as you can, maybe holding off to find a better GP/specialist farm site would be better in the long run?

 

[cabert]

about GP farm, you really should not forget that the free priest will disappear when ToA is obsolete.
And you will have loads of GPP sources later.
OTH GE sources are scarce, and you have one in Washington.
You could have the lucky GE faster .
now, do what you want with my contradictory advice

About Damascus, I'm quite sure you won't get the option to raze it.
You have it now, just live with it.

I have a question (maybe you already answered it somewhere, if so I'm sorry):
Did Saladin build the shrine for his brand new religion?
If not, you may be better off attacking the other city, sueing for peace and waiting until he does.

But be aware that 5 cpt from the holy city alone is going to hurt more than what we can have from the other city.

 

[Winston Hughes]

With regards to my/patagonia's point about Brennus cutting off trade with us, I just noticed that (on unpatched vanilla civ4 at least) mercantilism only affects the civ that enacts it; other civs can still get trade routes to that civ's cities. So as long as you have open borders with a civ you can get trade routes to their cities.

Anyone know if this still stands in Warlords?

 

[cabert]

With regards to my/patagonia's point about Brennus cutting off trade with us, I just noticed that (on unpatched vanilla civ4 at least) mercantilism only affects the civ that enacts it; other civs can still get trade routes to that civ's cities. So as long as you have open borders with a civ you can get trade routes to their cities.

Anyone know if this still stands in Warlords?

it doesn't
It was changed in 1.61 vanilla already : if you run mercantilism, none of your cities can benefit to other civs.

 

[aelf]

I've run a test on Worldbuilder by creating a similar situation in another game. We can raze Damascus. And I think we should do so because a size 1 city with low food and no special resource/wonder cannot beat a size 1 city with a food source in the fat cross, now or ever.

There is no news of Saladin getting a shrine. I'm quite sure he spent his last prophet to lightbulb Theology, and that isn't very long ago. Anyway, if we don't attack Medina now, he might suddenly just get a prophet and build the shrine soon. Then we can use our own prophet for something else. Another incentive to let Medina be for now

I might play the next round tonight. However, my PC is having a problem with its sound right now, so I might have to wait till it's fixed today or tomorrow.

 

[Winston Hughes]

it doesn't
It was changed in 1.61 vanilla already : if you run mercantilism, none of your cities can benefit to other civs.

Sensible change, I guess. But I'm glad I've not installed the patch yet; in my present game my allies have all turned to mercantilism, but my 70gpt worth of trade routes (with only two cities!) remains undisturbed.

 

[Zophos]

Zophos, unfortunately, Baghdad can work all the remaining gem tiles. So unless we raze that city, Sally will still have his precious stones to play with. I'm for pillaging the mines after razing Najran, though

Drat. Didn't see that in the screenshots (or didn't go far enough back to get an overview shot). Yeah, take Narjan, pillage the mines. Leave Medina alone until you've got cats. All that stuff.

 

[lilnev]

I've run a test on Worldbuilder by creating a similar situation in another game. We can raze Damascus. And I think we should do so because a size 1 city with low food and no special resource/wonder cannot beat a size 1 city with a food source in the fat cross, now or ever.

There is no news of Saladin getting a shrine. I'm quite sure he spent his last prophet to lightbulb Theology, and that isn't very long ago. Anyway, if we don't attack Medina now, he might suddenly just get a prophet and build the shrine soon. Then we can use our own prophet for something else. Another incentive to let Medina be for now

Sounds good. Go for it.

Back to the save at hand, isn't it usually counter-productive to put the NE in the capital? I try my best not to have my capital as the GP farm when possible, freeing it to be a hammer and/or commerce city. Looking at the save you don't seem to have much of a choice at the moment for your NE for now... while it may be good to take advantage of the NE as long as you can, maybe holding off to find a better GP/specialist farm site would be better in the long run?

The main reason not to use your capital as a GP farm is that Bureaucracy wants you to be working tiles whereas NE wants you to be picking up citizens as specialists. In this case, I feel like we get more than enough from doubling the GPPs due to the wonders and associated free specialists to make it worth living with that tension. It might even be feasible to move our palace to a city that can better leverage Bureaucracy some day (though that loses the ToA-capital trade routes synergy).

peace,
lilnev