The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
I think settle in place. I just won't believe east will give you such a better spot and the lack of resources gives me a very stronge vibe you will find horses (maybe copper) in your fat cross. I wouldn't suprised though, that this somewhat tougher starting location will be compensated for. Therefore I wouldn't be suprised if you find some marbel or stone close by. But then again, I am not very familiar with Ice Age, except the movie..
the fresh water is clearly a boon from the game due to capitol starting position. I wouldnt move an inch.. settle in place and get your warrior moving westward to explore in that direction. the lack of bonus tiles does indicate your very likely to get either horses, copper, or iron within the fat cross. hopefully you'll find another good spot nearby for city #2
NaZ
NaZ
tuckerthecat
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2006
- Messages
- 63
Since you are going for a trade route based economy & are playing with aggressive AI on, I'd recommend NOT adopting a state religion or at least converting to no-state religion just before you meet the other continent. You will want the lucrative over seas trade routes that come with astronomy but if you are a different religion when you 1st meet they will all really hate you.
I'd beeline for astronomy ( maybe you can pick it up via liberalism ) in this game.
I think it might be tough getting both ToA & the GreatLH based on your starting position ( unless the AI's starting locations are just as bad ) In most of my games the ToA seems to get built fairly quickly by the AI but I've also had a few games were the Great Lighthouse was built very very early. I wonder if there is 1 or 2 AI's that make it a priority?
good luck
I'd beeline for astronomy ( maybe you can pick it up via liberalism ) in this game.
I think it might be tough getting both ToA & the GreatLH based on your starting position ( unless the AI's starting locations are just as bad ) In most of my games the ToA seems to get built fairly quickly by the AI but I've also had a few games were the Great Lighthouse was built very very early. I wonder if there is 1 or 2 AI's that make it a priority?
good luck
aelf
Ashen One
If we get to Polytheism and Sailing quickly we should be able to outbuild the AI (with the help of chopping, of course). But we might not have the Great Lighthouse in our capital.
What is our order of research, though? I'm thinking AH (to reveal horses) -> Wheel/Mining -> BW (to reveal bronze and for chopping) -> Wheel/Masonry (if there's marble or stone nearby) -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Pottery? (for cottages) -> Sailing -> Masonry (if there's no marble or stone)
I think Washington should build at least one settler before starting on the ToA.
What is our order of research, though? I'm thinking AH (to reveal horses) -> Wheel/Mining -> BW (to reveal bronze and for chopping) -> Wheel/Masonry (if there's marble or stone nearby) -> Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Pottery? (for cottages) -> Sailing -> Masonry (if there's no marble or stone)
I think Washington should build at least one settler before starting on the ToA.
I don't like a capitol with zero hills. People are betting that there are hidden resources -- but what if they're late-game resources like coal or uranium? I say move W-NW and see what you find.
But if you do settle in place, I think Mining-BW should come first. It gives your worker something to do (chopping), and if you do find copper, either by the capitol or a nearby spot for city #2, then AH can wait -- maybe Wheel-Pottery-Myst-Poly. If there's no copper, then AH for some barb defense.
And you should definitely build a settler before starting the ToA (rather, you should build a settler before finishing it. If you want to grow your city before building the settler, the Temple might be a convenient place to dump the hammers).
peace,
lilnev
But if you do settle in place, I think Mining-BW should come first. It gives your worker something to do (chopping), and if you do find copper, either by the capitol or a nearby spot for city #2, then AH can wait -- maybe Wheel-Pottery-Myst-Poly. If there's no copper, then AH for some barb defense.
And you should definitely build a settler before starting the ToA (rather, you should build a settler before finishing it. If you want to grow your city before building the settler, the Temple might be a convenient place to dump the hammers).
peace,
lilnev
Tyrant Roger
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2006
- Messages
- 203
I agree that mining/BW should be a priority. You will need axes or chariots soon for barbs and a nearby aggressive AI. You will also need to start chopping a wonder or settler in your first city soon or both.
In the longer term - after other key techs are found - a beeline for Liberalism to get Astronomy seems promising.
Much will depend on how close the other AI's are and how many of them share your continent. Starting with a warrior is tempting to find that out and to allow your city to grow quickly thanks to the wheat. [You don't have the tech for a scout, right?]
Later production of settlers and workers will keep your capital from reaching its happiness limit too quickly.
After worker I suggest chopping a settler.
Good luck - with the aggressive AI setting you can expect early and frequent wars.
In the longer term - after other key techs are found - a beeline for Liberalism to get Astronomy seems promising.
Much will depend on how close the other AI's are and how many of them share your continent. Starting with a warrior is tempting to find that out and to allow your city to grow quickly thanks to the wheat. [You don't have the tech for a scout, right?]
Later production of settlers and workers will keep your capital from reaching its happiness limit too quickly.
After worker I suggest chopping a settler.
Good luck - with the aggressive AI setting you can expect early and frequent wars.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
aelf, wide or narrow continents?
settle in place.
@dutch, yes on poly for ToA.
it may be worthwhile sending out a workboat to scout...
settle in place.
@ NaZ, please explain the three cities.
@dutch, yes on poly for ToA.
it may be worthwhile sending out a workboat to scout...
Long time lurker chiming in with a few suggestions. From trying a bunch of starts with the specified settings myself, land is going to be at a premium. Odds are definitely in favor of a snaky continent. Based on what scouting over the next few dozen turns reveals, we have a good chance to either be alone (which sort of hurts the strategy), or to have a lot of good bottlenecks on the map to place cities. If it's the second case, we may be able to build one city further out than usual to claim a solid chunk of space, then build out between.
In any case, to answer your question, Dutchfire, this seems pretty typical for an ice age start. I'd recommend building in that spot. AH, mining, BW seems like a good tech start. Beyond that, still depends a little on what we find. Our first worker can farm the food, either make further improvement with discovered resources or help chop a settler, then help improve area around 2nd city.
In any case, to answer your question, Dutchfire, this seems pretty typical for an ice age start. I'd recommend building in that spot. AH, mining, BW seems like a good tech start. Beyond that, still depends a little on what we find. Our first worker can farm the food, either make further improvement with discovered resources or help chop a settler, then help improve area around 2nd city.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Hey Cadran, welcome to the threads.
3 cities explanation huh. ok then. you're only allowed to trade with cities via roads, rivers, coastal areas after sailing or some combination. before you meet another civ that can trade with you you would have to have the capitol and 2 others to benefit from the # of trade routes possible after the great lighthouse.. make sense??
NaZ
NaZ
I'd just build right there. We have about 10 forests visible which = ~200 hammers. (forests in fat cross = 20 hammers, out of fat cross = 16 and down or so, right?)
My concern is that without any hills visible we need some forests for production later, so we are in a bind if we need to chop a settler which will cost us about half the forests we see right now. The GL is 200 hammers, which is all the forests we have, and the ToA is 400 shields, and a lighthouse is 60 shields, + settler (100) and worker, warrior, we are looking at a lot of stuff we need which cannot simply be chop rushed. We can chop rush a settler and get started on, maybe, the ToA, but then we are left with a capital with no production. Maybe just forget about any wonders in the capital and find a good second city site?
Say we want the GL in the capital. This means we need to not chop rush anything till we get sailing, then chop rush a lighthouse (3 forests) and then the GL, and by then we'd still need about 30 hammers, not too much but not chop rushing anything till then means we are off to a slow start.
As a rather "out there" alternative, how about this: chop rush the great wall (after building a settler) (250 hammers, do-able with the forests we have.) This gives us a) security from barbs, so no need to build more than say, 1 or 2 more warriors if we are lucky and dont run into any aggressive AI, and b) it gives us an engineer in 50 turns who can rush the ToA for us since we wont have what we need for the GL by then. After the ToA, we have a 50/50 chance of getting another engineer in another 50 turns who can rush the GL if we have a lighthouse by then. This means that if we build the GW, 100 turns later we've (hopefully) got the two wonders we need, neither of which we even need to bother building. It's hard to not spend a GE on the pyramids, but this seems to be the spirit of the game. The drawback is we are dependent on our second city giving us all the units we need while we build the GW, such as more settlers and defense from the AI/barbs.
That's kind of a crazy alternative, but I thought I'd throw it out there. To sum up, the safe play would be chop settlers and warriors/workers and found some more productive cities, and make our capital either cottage heavy or early Great person farm owing to all the grass/wheat. Probelm there is I hate making a capital non-productive shields wise.
Found on the spot, go worker-warrior-settler.
Research mining-->BW-->Wheel-->?AH-->?fishing-->?sailing?, if we go with my insane-but-totally-ballsy alternative, throw masonry in there after BW.
I'm dead tired, hopefully this post makes sense.
edit: I wanted to add that the AI never seems to make the ToA or the GL a very high priority, so no need to rush it.
My concern is that without any hills visible we need some forests for production later, so we are in a bind if we need to chop a settler which will cost us about half the forests we see right now. The GL is 200 hammers, which is all the forests we have, and the ToA is 400 shields, and a lighthouse is 60 shields, + settler (100) and worker, warrior, we are looking at a lot of stuff we need which cannot simply be chop rushed. We can chop rush a settler and get started on, maybe, the ToA, but then we are left with a capital with no production. Maybe just forget about any wonders in the capital and find a good second city site?
Say we want the GL in the capital. This means we need to not chop rush anything till we get sailing, then chop rush a lighthouse (3 forests) and then the GL, and by then we'd still need about 30 hammers, not too much but not chop rushing anything till then means we are off to a slow start.
As a rather "out there" alternative, how about this: chop rush the great wall (after building a settler) (250 hammers, do-able with the forests we have.) This gives us a) security from barbs, so no need to build more than say, 1 or 2 more warriors if we are lucky and dont run into any aggressive AI, and b) it gives us an engineer in 50 turns who can rush the ToA for us since we wont have what we need for the GL by then. After the ToA, we have a 50/50 chance of getting another engineer in another 50 turns who can rush the GL if we have a lighthouse by then. This means that if we build the GW, 100 turns later we've (hopefully) got the two wonders we need, neither of which we even need to bother building. It's hard to not spend a GE on the pyramids, but this seems to be the spirit of the game. The drawback is we are dependent on our second city giving us all the units we need while we build the GW, such as more settlers and defense from the AI/barbs.
That's kind of a crazy alternative, but I thought I'd throw it out there. To sum up, the safe play would be chop settlers and warriors/workers and found some more productive cities, and make our capital either cottage heavy or early Great person farm owing to all the grass/wheat. Probelm there is I hate making a capital non-productive shields wise.
Found on the spot, go worker-warrior-settler.
Research mining-->BW-->Wheel-->?AH-->?fishing-->?sailing?, if we go with my insane-but-totally-ballsy alternative, throw masonry in there after BW.
I'm dead tired, hopefully this post makes sense.
edit: I wanted to add that the AI never seems to make the ToA or the GL a very high priority, so no need to rush it.
aelf
Ashen One
I like Illram's Great Wall gambit. But we have to build the Great Wall really quickly, I feel, or else we might just lose the ToA to the AI. Maybe we could furiously chop rush it.
I vote for settling in place myself. The map generator likes to make the original site a relatively good one. I really suspect there's a strategic resource in the fat cross (and not a late one, because that wouldn't be fair) and moving away might most us that.
Going for BW first is a good idea. If I decide to go with the Great Wall gambit, Masonry would probaby come next.
I need to hurry off at the moment, but I'll be playing the first round tonight. Stay tuned.
I vote for settling in place myself. The map generator likes to make the original site a relatively good one. I really suspect there's a strategic resource in the fat cross (and not a late one, because that wouldn't be fair) and moving away might most us that.
Going for BW first is a good idea. If I decide to go with the Great Wall gambit, Masonry would probaby come next.
I need to hurry off at the moment, but I'll be playing the first round tonight. Stay tuned.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
On Monarch, the ToA seems to go around 1200-800BC in most of my games. It depends largely on which leaders are about and whether anyone's got marble, but both that and the Great Wall seem to be the highest priority for the AI out of the ancient wonders.
Since you're Industrious, you get an extra 50% per chop whilst building wonders, which makes forests used for that worth 30
. The Great Wall would therefore be doable in 7 chops (assuming you put the remaining 27 base in yourself), which would hopefully leave one remaining to give the possibility of regrowth, or go towards a settler.
The problem with adopting the GW -> GE for second wonder approach with Roosevelt is that he's not philosophical, which means for normal speed, you have to get the GW built a minimum of 50 turns before you think the AI will build the ToA if you're set on focusing on the synergy between that and the GL (which can be massive, especially if you're Carthage with Cothons). Of course, if the ToA is built in that window, you've essentially lost nothing, used a lot less of your early production on wonders, denied the AI those GE points and bought a second wonder for "free" anyway, so it's definitely not a disaster.
However, to be guaranteed the GW and ToA from the GE, you may need to get that wall chopped before building your first settler, which could well be a massive gamble depending on where the nearest AI is based.
Since you're Industrious, you get an extra 50% per chop whilst building wonders, which makes forests used for that worth 30
. The Great Wall would therefore be doable in 7 chops (assuming you put the remaining 27 base in yourself), which would hopefully leave one remaining to give the possibility of regrowth, or go towards a settler.The problem with adopting the GW -> GE for second wonder approach with Roosevelt is that he's not philosophical, which means for normal speed, you have to get the GW built a minimum of 50 turns before you think the AI will build the ToA if you're set on focusing on the synergy between that and the GL (which can be massive, especially if you're Carthage with Cothons). Of course, if the ToA is built in that window, you've essentially lost nothing, used a lot less of your early production on wonders, denied the AI those GE points and bought a second wonder for "free" anyway, so it's definitely not a disaster.
However, to be guaranteed the GW and ToA from the GE, you may need to get that wall chopped before building your first settler, which could well be a massive gamble depending on where the nearest AI is based.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
I've not played with aggressive AI above prince so far, so I may be a bit out of my depth here, but are the changes to do with attitudes or does it affect their entire approach (preferring units to wonders etc)?dutchfire said:With aggresive AI!
I think I may have got my GW -> GE sums a bit wrong too. Unless you build two workers initially, it's going to take your single worker [(7X3)+7] = 28 turns to chop seven forests (assuming you build the GW predominately by chops). It would therefore make much more sense to build/partially-chop a settler whilst your worker pre-chops more forests to rush-build the GW after the settler has completed. So on reflection, it would be incredibly silly to head straight for the GW after building a worker.
The 50 turn wait for a GE does, however, mean you'd want the GW built long before you anticipate the AI completing the ToA. When does normal speed scale from 40 to 20 years/turn?
aelf
Ashen One
Round 1: 4000BC - 2400BC
The survivor tribe of America emerged into the dim sunlight of the surface. The stillness of death still hung in the air, but there was a feeling like that of winter on the brink of thaw. A gentle but chilling breeze blew, stirring hair and the blades of grass that grew in odd clumps on the barren ground. Fresh air - a far cry from the stale air of the tunnels and grottoes. Clearly, it was a new dawn.
The sea was before them, a great lake stretching beyond the horizon. And there was the sound of running water - a nearby river. The tribe decided that it was an auspicious place to settle. They would cultivate the land and fish on the coast using the knowledge passed to them by their fathers. And they would name their settlement after the first city name that came to their minds: Washington.
(No, Jet. No brain-eating virus or zombie infested malls
)
I decided to follow illram's suggestion of building the Great Wall and using the GE from it to build the ToA. This is actually a great idea for us (pun intended
). The 'Great' Wall is only 250 hammers, we're Industious and we have many trees to chop. The GE that comes for it practically guarantees us a wonder (even if we don't manage to get the ToA; Great Library, anyone? 
), and we get to benefit from the Wall's effects as well. 250H for some neat bonuses and a free 400H wonder is difficult to argue against.
This means BW and Masonry are a priority for us, so that we can chop for the wonder as soon as our first settler is done.
Anyway, I also decided to settle in place for fear of losing out if some strategic resource should show up in the original site later. The fresh water bonus is also a good boon to help fight the low health cap on Emperor. Production might not be great, but we could make use of the chop initially and then just cottage spam to make the capital a commerce city.
So Washington was founded:
Well, it seems there are hills nearby, but not near enough, unfortunately. I guess 2nd city should be the production city.
Our first build was a warrior, since if we were to build a worker first we wouldn't have researched BW when he is ready and he wouldn't have anything to do after farming the wheat. We would be better off with another explorer in the meantime.
Our governor recommended this:
As you can see, working the highest food tile still wouldn't make us grow before the warrior is completed and the worker is started. And according to my calculations, if we were to wait 8 turns before starting on the worker, he would only be able to begin chopping (after farming the wheat) quite a few turns after BW was researched, which would be a waste of time. So I decided to work the the plains forest (1F2H) to complete the warrior in 5 turns.
Our original warrior popped another hut (you could consider the huts ruins from before the ice age):
It gave us 36 gold. At least we're quite lucky with the huts so far.
We sent the warrior we built exploring the southern coast, and he did find some seafood:
The tundra around is very unappealing, though.
And he found another seafood tile, as well as another hut:
Our luck still held and the hut gave us 69 gold. Goodie!
Then we met our first neighbour. Guess who.
And we have agressive AI on He must be nearby too. Well, psychotic neighbour or no we should not be diverted from the early aims of this challenge.
When the worker was completed, he was sent to farm the wheat first, and we started on another warrior (barracks would take too long) to allow us to grow before we started on the settler:
Don't worry, when the farm is ready it would help us grow before the warrior is completed.
Well, it turned out that the timing was perfect:
And, as if the map is trying to spite us, there was no stone around and our warrior found marble far from from where we are:
Industrious could be so much better. Oh well, if the AIs are slow enough at building the ToA, we would be able to build it instantly with our GE anyway. And getting the Great Lighthouse shouldn't be a problem if we chop for it.
[to be continued in the next post...]
The survivor tribe of America emerged into the dim sunlight of the surface. The stillness of death still hung in the air, but there was a feeling like that of winter on the brink of thaw. A gentle but chilling breeze blew, stirring hair and the blades of grass that grew in odd clumps on the barren ground. Fresh air - a far cry from the stale air of the tunnels and grottoes. Clearly, it was a new dawn.
The sea was before them, a great lake stretching beyond the horizon. And there was the sound of running water - a nearby river. The tribe decided that it was an auspicious place to settle. They would cultivate the land and fish on the coast using the knowledge passed to them by their fathers. And they would name their settlement after the first city name that came to their minds: Washington.
(No, Jet. No brain-eating virus or zombie infested malls
)I decided to follow illram's suggestion of building the Great Wall and using the GE from it to build the ToA. This is actually a great idea for us (pun intended
). The 'Great' Wall is only 250 hammers, we're Industious and we have many trees to chop. The GE that comes for it practically guarantees us a wonder (even if we don't manage to get the ToA; Great Library, anyone? ), and we get to benefit from the Wall's effects as well. 250H for some neat bonuses and a free 400H wonder is difficult to argue against.This means BW and Masonry are a priority for us, so that we can chop for the wonder as soon as our first settler is done.
Anyway, I also decided to settle in place for fear of losing out if some strategic resource should show up in the original site later. The fresh water bonus is also a good boon to help fight the low health cap on Emperor. Production might not be great, but we could make use of the chop initially and then just cottage spam to make the capital a commerce city.
So Washington was founded:
Well, it seems there are hills nearby, but not near enough, unfortunately. I guess 2nd city should be the production city.
Our first build was a warrior, since if we were to build a worker first we wouldn't have researched BW when he is ready and he wouldn't have anything to do after farming the wheat. We would be better off with another explorer in the meantime.
Our governor recommended this:
As you can see, working the highest food tile still wouldn't make us grow before the warrior is completed and the worker is started. And according to my calculations, if we were to wait 8 turns before starting on the worker, he would only be able to begin chopping (after farming the wheat) quite a few turns after BW was researched, which would be a waste of time. So I decided to work the the plains forest (1F2H) to complete the warrior in 5 turns.
Our original warrior popped another hut (you could consider the huts ruins from before the ice age
):It gave us 36 gold. At least we're quite lucky with the huts so far.
We sent the warrior we built exploring the southern coast, and he did find some seafood:
The tundra around is very unappealing, though.
And he found another seafood tile, as well as another hut:
Our luck still held and the hut gave us 69 gold. Goodie!
Then we met our first neighbour. Guess who.
And we have agressive AI on
He must be nearby too. Well, psychotic neighbour or no we should not be diverted from the early aims of this challenge.When the worker was completed, he was sent to farm the wheat first, and we started on another warrior (barracks would take too long) to allow us to grow before we started on the settler:
Don't worry, when the farm is ready it would help us grow before the warrior is completed.
Well, it turned out that the timing was perfect:
And, as if the map is trying to spite us, there was no stone around and our warrior found marble far from from where we are:
Industrious could be so much better. Oh well, if the AIs are slow enough at building the ToA, we would be able to build it instantly with our GE anyway. And getting the Great Lighthouse shouldn't be a problem if we chop for it.
[to be continued in the next post...]
aelf
Ashen One
[continued from previous post]
By the way, I forgot to mention, there was no copper around
I hoped for horses, but we had to research Masonry after BW so that we could start chopping for the Great Wall. We need that GE early if we want to use him for the ToA. AH would be researched after that.
After farming the wheat, our worker chopped the forest on the irrigated grassland just as we started on the settler:
A farm on that grassland tile was in order. We could work it while building settler and get 1 commerce at the same time.
A few turns later, we met another neighbour while exploring:
again. We don't want praets knocking on our door! Anyway, I could be wrong, but it seems that selecting aggressive AI makes them start off disliking you more. I think Caesar should normally be cautious when you first meet him. Is that all the difference, though?
We found his location:
It looks much better than ours
Soon, our settler was completed and we could begin on the Great Wall:
I think we should grow our city asap while we start chopping (our worker has had time to do one prechop - the SE grassland forest). We can probably get more hammers per turn with an extra citizen.
And this is the end of the first round. We need to decide on where to settle our 2nd city. AH has yet to be discovered and there's no copper anywhere, but I'm betting our capital has either horses or iron so it should be safe to make the decision now. A good production city is our priority at the moment. If we need to we can grab a strategic resource with our 3rd city.
Here's a map of the southern coast:
And north of that region:
I've done a little dotmap of possible city sites:
Site A seems good for an early production city. Site B tempts with its gems, but I think it's too far away for now (maybe we can have our 3rd city there?). We can place a city on the green question mark in the future to grab the crabs on the southern coast.
And here's a map of the rest of the known world:
I see a puke-green border to the east. It doesn't look like a very big continent. Higher likelihood of early wars?
Your comments and thoughts, please
PS: Yes, I realise I made a mistake by not moving the escorting warrior out before completing the settler, but I guess we could move the settler carefully while the warrior catches up with him, if we want to be quick.
By the way, I forgot to mention, there was no copper around
I hoped for horses, but we had to research Masonry after BW so that we could start chopping for the Great Wall. We need that GE early if we want to use him for the ToA. AH would be researched after that.
After farming the wheat, our worker chopped the forest on the irrigated grassland just as we started on the settler:
A farm on that grassland tile was in order. We could work it while building settler and get 1 commerce at the same time.
A few turns later, we met another neighbour while exploring:
again. We don't want praets knocking on our door! Anyway, I could be wrong, but it seems that selecting aggressive AI makes them start off disliking you more. I think Caesar should normally be cautious when you first meet him. Is that all the difference, though?We found his location:
It looks much better than ours
Soon, our settler was completed and we could begin on the Great Wall:
I think we should grow our city asap while we start chopping (our worker has had time to do one prechop - the SE grassland forest). We can probably get more hammers per turn with an extra citizen.
And this is the end of the first round. We need to decide on where to settle our 2nd city. AH has yet to be discovered and there's no copper anywhere, but I'm betting our capital has either horses or iron so it should be safe to make the decision now. A good production city is our priority at the moment. If we need to we can grab a strategic resource with our 3rd city.
Here's a map of the southern coast:
And north of that region:
I've done a little dotmap of possible city sites:
Site A seems good for an early production city. Site B tempts with its gems, but I think it's too far away for now (maybe we can have our 3rd city there?). We can place a city on the green question mark in the future to grab the crabs on the southern coast.
And here's a map of the rest of the known world:
I see a puke-green border to the east. It doesn't look like a very big continent. Higher likelihood of early wars?
Your comments and thoughts, please
PS: Yes, I realise I made a mistake by not moving the escorting warrior out before completing the settler, but I guess we could move the settler carefully while the warrior catches up with him, if we want to be quick.
