The Emperor Masters' Challenge

[Alraun]

Just curious... for everybody who suggests settling in place... why? Health concerns? Or do you just not think there's anything else out there? I'd at least recommend knowing what the warrior reveals before deciding for sure.

Obviously you want to move the warrior first to be sure, but there's no reason to waste time looking for a starting spot when you've already got a great one. To me, the only question is whether or not you want to build on the plains/hill, which is a distinct maybe but means sacrificing getting that gold for a while.

 

[kniteowl]

Interesting my last peaceful win on Emp was with MM Althought my next door neighbour Toku got annoying so I knocked him out with infantry when he was still in the Middle Ages.

Anywayz If you want to go for the early (different) risky Agressive Tactic go look for the closest AI and Steal their Worker While you Beeline to Archery let your Cap Build Barracks till then and Rush Skirmishers and go knock out your Neighbour and you get 2 Capitals YAY!!! lol (cross fingers their Cap isn't on a hill)

NOTE: give your Skirmishers 1st Strike Promotion

Or go for the usual Peaceful tactic... BW > Pottery > Alphebet BLAH BLAH BLAH you've done it all before! your a Civ Veteran winning sucessfully on Emp from previous games.

There's a chance you could be alone on the continent so be ready to beeline to Optics ASAP after Writing (for libraries) just in case...

BTW stay where you are, your starting position looks Alright 95% of the time your starting position will be good (personally I never move my starting settler UNLESS I'm 1 tile away from the coast)

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I'm only a Noble level player, but I have a couple ideas that I'm curious about for your situation.

First, what about movint one tile east (the forest on the river). It gives you at least 4 flood plains to cottage spam while still giving access to the cows and Gold.

Secondly, I hear people ignoring Archery when your UU is a replacement for an archer (and nastier when it's promoted). I could see if you were gunning for Bronze working and an axe rush (using axes to cover your cities until Gunpowder), but when you have skirmishers, CG I goes from 3.6 to 4.8, CG II goes from 4.35 to 5.8, and CG III goes from 5.25 to 6.00! That nerfs an opposing axe rush and any barbarian problems you may encounter...

Edit: I forgot the third one: About the fish, there's a forest just at the edge of the view. That could be a fish city. Sure it will suck, but it gets the resource...

 

[Zherak_Khan]

City locations:

My beef with settling in place is that it makes the Northern city with the fishes hard to place. I'd move settler S and then decide between S, SW or E (last one most likely) for the capitol. This leaves either a decent commerce city in the north, or at least a great GPFarm. You do, however, run the risk of getting lots of desert for your capitol. I think the mapscript will never give you peaks or deserts in capitol spot.

About techs:

Too early to decide on anything, but Skirmishers are great for the opening game. Worker first, mine the gold, then Skirmisher/Skirmisher/Settler or something along the lines is my first idea.

 

[Poodlebrain]

ABOUT TECHS

Too early to decide on anything, but Skirmishers are great for the opening game. Worker first, mine the gold, then Skirmisher/Skirmisher/Settler or something along the lines is my first idea.

If the first build is a worker, which will take approximately 20 turns, then you should probably spend that time researching Hunting and Archery to get the Skirmishers on line. The Skirmishers will be superior to anything your opponents can muster for many game turns, and they transition into very effective fogbusters. When your worker mines the gold your research rate will be sufficient to get Bronze Working about the same time as you will be able to plan for exploiting any source of copper that is not in your fat cross.

This is the safe approach that guarantees military superiority early in the game. It will be somewhat wasted if you get copper in your fat cross, but how often are you that fortunate?

 

[aelf]

So really this is only going to be as hard as Monarch at the most.

Have you even tried it before? I don't know what you're trying to get across here. I played Monarch on Normal speed many times before moving on to Emperor, and from what I recall it is much easier than Emperor at Epic. If you think I really am just a Monarch player then maybe you ought to teach me a thing or two as the game progresses, alright?

The thing that is certain about Epic is units still have the same movement point as in Normal, so a number of turns spent moving to a target on Epic (especially in enemy territory) will be proportionately smaller than on Normal since Epic gives you more turns in a game. If you spent a several turns at let's say 100 hundred game years moving your units through enemy lands, they are more likely to get obsolete in the midst of the war than if you spent the same number of turns at 50 game years.

Alright, my bad about Hunting and Pottery. I thought Pottery had no more requirements than The Wheel because I've never prioritized it. I'd usually want some farms around first or a workboat for seafood.

Yes, acidsatyr, I hear you. I am not usually a financial player and I love early to late mid-game aggressive play, which calls for lots of farms and whipping. But I am not so sure of that in this game. MM is not geared for that much aggression judging from his traits and his UU. Maybe Spiritual can give a slight military edge but axes with no free Combat I are a drag. Plus the fact that MM has a damn good defensive UU in the early game, it makes REX an option that may be superior to rushing.

I think I would change the order of techs being researched to Agriculture (for quick growth) -> Pottery -> BW -> Hunting -> AH -> Archery. Hunting before AH because the worker could spend time putting down a farm or two and some cottages before he works on the cows. As was pointed out, we might not need the health bonus from the cows so quickly (although we do want to take advantage of the food and hammers it gives us soon). And Hunting would make AH cheaper and open up Archery.

Why Archery after we have BW? For one we'll have to see if we have any copper nearby. And if our neighbours are not close, I think REX maybe be superior to a rush (definitely not Skirmisher rush anyway; these things don't get CR!). For me the BW is as much for Slavery as for looking for copper.

Anyway, here's more detailed screenshot of the starting location:

Nothing more revealing. The tiles to the east of the forest and the river look like grassland. Well, let's move the settler one tile NE to take an actual look. The warrior can go to the forest hill SW of it to take a look at the west.

Now this is interesting. Two gold hills! El Dorado, baby That really makes the idea of settling on the forest south of where the settler is now an appealing idea. We get two gold mines and an extra floodplain that will not give us more than 1 unhealthiness in total. The only downside is we lose a forest (ouch, for me). The west doesn't seem to promise anything great.

Now let's move the settler to the forest south to check out more of the area we might want to settle.

This revealed only one tile: A plains tile beside the river that we can already surmise from the screen before. However, I had to move the settler into the forest on the second move if we are to settle our city there by the second turn (I think we should). If need be, although I don't see why, we could move the settler back to the starting location and settle there on turn 2.

Any thoughts now?

 

[aelf]

If the first build is a worker, which will take approximately 20 turns, then you should probably spend that time researching Hunting and Archery to get the Skirmishers on line. The Skirmishers will be superior to anything your opponents can muster for many game turns, and they transition into very effective fogbusters. When your worker mines the gold your research rate will be sufficient to get Bronze Working about the same time as you will be able to plan for exploiting any source of copper that is not in your fat cross.

This is the safe approach that guarantees military superiority early in the game. It will be somewhat wasted if you get copper in your fat cross, but how often are you that fortunate?

Indeed copper is unlikely around the capital, given so many good resources already. We probably have aluminium as a strategic resource. However, I think we don't need Skirmishers that soon. I feel that we can make do with a few warriors first and researching some important worker techs and BW for at least Slavery. With floodplains and some farms on them we should be hitting the happiness limit pretty soon, and that's a sign it's time to whip. Then we can whip some Skirmishers if we need them.

 

[aelf]

BTW, thanks to all those who piped in and gave their suggestions. If I don't reply you directly, it doesn't mean I am not considering them. I would address the more pertinent issues raised and, hopefully, take in and apply your suggestions when I consider the next move. Continue with the suggestions, everyone, whatever difficulty you are playing at.

 

[pigswill]

Blue circles are kind of interesting on this map. You don't have one on your current location (2 gold and cow in fat cross). Despite protestations by Firaxis that AI doesn't know location of concealed resources I'm not convinced. OTOH if they're indicating coal or uranium that's not of immediate benefit.
Passing thought: if you're considering worker-napping a skirmisher may survive better than a warrior; they'd also survive better as general explorers vs beasties and barbs.

 

[dutchfire]

aelf, just a quick question:
Why did you move directly into the forest, you could have gone 1SE and then 1W with the same result, but with more info about the surroundings.

 

[acidsatyr]

1e to get both gold. WHy you in a forest?!
anyway
more reasons why to skip cotagges this early

 

[Gumbolt]

Woo 2 gold and a cow. I would of done forest as below for extra flood plain as the gold provides no food and you will need a fast growing city to use both resources quickly.

Although having looked closer now i wonder if a city by the sea near the fish would allow a city below the gold resource as a second city. People are always saying start by coast if you can. Tough choices ahead.

 

[aelf]

I think Skirmishers would come too late to make good explorers, though. Unless we plan on going for Archery early, and I don't think there's a point in that as I would prioritise workers and settlers in the beginning.

I moved into the forest because that was my 2nd move for the 1st turn. If I went 1SE and then W into the forest, I would be using up the 2nd turn moving and would only be able to settle the city on the 3rd turn. Not keen on that.

1E would mean we lose a flood plain and where we are now we get both gold hills as well. This seems to be the best position without wasting another turn moving the settler.

I guess a Financial capital should on the coast to reap the most benefits from the trait, but I think given what we have now, it's not necessary. Two gold mines this early and four flood plains more than make up for anything the coast can give.

Now, on the subject of worker theft. I've never done it. I mean, I've never used my first few warriors and actively go around looking for workers to steal. When I declare war for the first time, I'd like to be able to conquer most of the target and then force a peace if I need time to recover. I don't like to declare war only for a worker or two and wait many turns of WW for the civ to sue for peace, a treaty which would give me nothing. I don't think a warrior parked near the AI capital on a forest hill or something can last that long against an AI at this level to cause enough damage. Can someone advise me whether we should go worker stealing in this game?

 

[acidsatyr]

yes.
build first warrior until you grow size 2 then start worker meanwhile have a look around and see who can you still warrior from and how far he is from you. Some civs you dont want to disturb like Rome because he wont make peace but some are easy targets like Hatty.
Settling 1NW from 2nd gold is best spot.

 

[futurehermit]

i always shy away from mm cuz of his defensive posture. however, you have a great starting position. archers generally only cost 1 pop to pop rush and you got a high-food start so i would go bronze-hunting-archery-anhusb. i normally only research archery if i start with hunting, but with the archer uu i think you have to do it. from there i would chop-pop rush settlers and archers to settle two more cities. with copper and horses both revealed you should be able to get at least one if not both with these cities. i wouldn't build any more cities than that. try and steal a worker if you can so that you don't interrupt settler and archer production. if you can't though, then just chop a worker. after you get a military resource online (you really should get copper or horses, if not then keep rexing and beeline to iron) then start gearing up to capture cities. on emperor someone should volunteer to be the first to die. with a financial leader pottery is important so i would go ag-pottery next. all of this is steering away from the mysticism track, so i would just pop-rush (1 pop) obelisks instead of getting preoccupied with wonders (no industrial, no wonder resources thusfar anyways).

this should be an interesting thread!

 

[acidsatyr]

hunting -> archery is serious waste of time
and so is getting pottery at this point (you have 2 gold FCOL)

 

[futurehermit]

i disagree on the archery. 4 strength archers can even deal with barb axemen. and just cuz you have gold in your capital doesn't mean you will in your other cities. i'm not suggesting pottery right away, but you'll probably need it for subsequent cities.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

City locations:

Captiol E or SE.
Fishing village in the NW spot, will easily get 18 food for 5 specialists.

Tech:
Straight archery. (You start with mining and wheel? You need mining.)

Builds:
Worker (Goldmines and some roading until you can farm floods and p. cows)
Skirmisher x2
Settler

 

[aelf]

Ok, I see the point of moving the settler E from where it is. Time for a little dotmapping. A bit too early, I know, but it makes it easier to see which site is better.

Site A is the site suggested by a few of you while Site B is the site the settler is currently on. Site C is the possible site for a city in the future to grab the fish. I didn't see initially that placing the capital at Site B would create difficulties for settling Site C and I wanted as many flood plains as possible for the capital. Luckily it's not to late to put the capital down at Site A on the second turn.

I am also quite convinced that perhaps we should go for Archery earlier than I thought since Mansa's UU is so tempting to use and they are certainly much better for early protection than warriors. They could be used to steal a worker too, if the chance presents itself, although we should not hesitate to use the warrior if so happens it gets the chance. I've just read the guide to worker stealing in the Strategy Articles forum.

However, to balance this with the possibility and potential of rushing with axemen (which will be crucial if we get boxed in), I'd go for BW first and check for copper nearby. Mansa starts with Mining anyway. So I think the order of the early techs should be revised to: BW (for copper and Slavery, and since there's no worker to build farms so early anyway) -> Agriculture -> Hunting -> Archery -> AH -> Pottery. But it could be BW -> Agriculture -> Pottery -> Hunting -> Archery -> AH if we are not rushing to get Skirmishers. I'll have to weigh both options within the next 20 turns or so while BW is being researched.

Tell me your thoughts for now. I'll probably play only tomorrow evening (GMT+8).

 

[futurehermit]

after some rethinking, what about bronze-agriculture-hunting-archery-ah-pottery? as others have said, you don't need pottery asap nor ah if you're gonna farm two floodplains (?).