The Espionage Gambit

[InvisibleStalke]

Playing on Emperor with Charlemagne, I have been forced to catchup from a huge tech deficit using Espionage. In fact my only chance has been to rely on my spies and they have done extremely well.

I started the game wanting to explore Espionage using a protective leader. I like this combination because of the cheap castles and the synergy with the nationhood civic giving bonuses to espionage and producing promoted units with protective.

The game started well - I got the Great Wall and the Statue of Zeus. When Ragnar attacked Ghandi I decided to help Ghandi. I then realized I had made a huge blunder and settled my great spy in one of Ragnar's cities instead of the tech leader - Ghandis. While Ghandi teched away I fought a heavy duty war with Ragnar eventually crushing him and vassalizing him.

I stole Engineering from Ghandi and then attacked him. Probably my second blunder. The war started as an enormous slugfest. Ghandi had very high power but I couldn't see that he had the military to back it up. But his units kept coming. I fell in love with Landskneghts - I had four settled great generals and was producing CR3 Landskneghts every couple of turns. Ghandi loved to build knights and war elephants. My Landskneghts loved to kill them. In their thousands.

War weariness and the cost of a big army wrecked my economy. I was done to 80% cash and desperately researched drama to get us to 20% culture. Eventually after taking half Ghandi's empire I accepted peace. He just refused to capitulate.

It was now around 1600AD. I hadn't taken Education yet. Meanwhile on the other continent Augustus was at least 8 techs ahead. Liberalism was long gone. I needed to play catchup. Desperately.

Enter the spies. I switched to maximum espionage (only 20% at this stage) and started cottaging up and growing back my cities. I started stealing techs off Ghandi and building castles in every city. Stole my way to democracy. Meanwhile Augustus built the Pentagon!

With all the castles Ghandi was suddenly impressed at all my military might and volunteered to be my vassal. What! He wouldn't capitulate when I was at war razing cities but he was happy to pal up once I had castles. We shared a religion so that set him to friendly. Great - he could research techs I wanted and I could steal them from Augustus. Luckily Augustus had built a single city on our continent.

Built jails in every city. Built Intelligence agencies and security centres. I am stealing techs from Augustus faster than he can research them. Every 4 turns or so I pull another tech from him. The cost to research is higher than the cost to steal and I just march up his tech research. The deficit is down to around 3 techs now and I am up to Industrialism. I haven't researched a tech myself since Education.

Eventually I hope to catch him and switch to free speech and max research instead. By then all my towns will be fully grown. Meanwhile I have joined the rest of the world in fighting Montezuma. With two friendly vassals on my continent maybe a diplomatic win is acheivable. I lead in production and population but not in GDP. I have no idea why Augustus teched so quickly - but I am happy to take advantage of it.

Anyway this proves to me that espionage is viable well into the lategame. And it may be the best strategy for come from behind wins.

 

[mice]

Enter the spies. I switched to maximum espionage (only 20% at this stage)

So would you recommend a switch to 100% espionage if your slider was more healthy, like 60% science in the green before the switch ? I mean, did you put any commerce in the tech slider when yuor econ recovered ?

 

[InvisibleStalke]

So would you recommend a switch to 100% espionage if your slider was more healthy, like 60% science in the green before the switch ? I mean, did you put any commerce in the tech slider when yuor econ recovered ?

No - I put every ounce of commerce I could into espionage. As my economy recovered I was able to get up to 60% espionage. My recommendation is that if you are behind, then espionage is a fast way to catchup. I put nothing into science until just recently when I stole Augustus's last tech and now that my economy is fully online I am researching quicker than he is.

Now I have switched to 70% science. But since I have so many espionage buildings I am still getting 500EP per turn - after 10 turns I can steal another late game tech from him - as well as my own research.

Anyway domination or diplomatic wins are both on the cards. Montezuma vassalized to me. Suleiman vassalized to me as well (after one turn! those castles must sure be impressing people).

 

[KMadCandy]

Anyway domination or diplomatic wins are both on the cards. Montezuma vassalized to me. Suleiman vassalized to me as well (after one turn! those castles must sure be impressing people).

castles are shiny. Gus sounds awfully handy in your game. even built a vacation spot on your continent, how convenient!

 

[Indiansmoke]

I have done something similar just by settling a great spy in the AI capital and focusing all my spy points on this opponent. Did not use the slider at all and I was able to steal, Enginnering, Guilds and Astronomy...before invading him!

 

[r_rolo1]

Castles add points to the Soldiers count, hence to the Power graph... But I agree that: " Oh my god, he has castles and he's invading me... must surrender before I'm defeated by those big stony buildings in battle..." syndrom is funny

And Invisiblestalke, you settled or bombed the GSpies you got?

 

[UncleJJ]

Built jails in every city. Built Intelligence agencies and security centres. I am stealing techs from Augustus faster than he can research them. Every 4 turns or so I pull another tech from him. The cost to research is higher than the cost to steal and I just march up his tech research. The deficit is down to around 3 techs now and I am up to Industrialism. I haven't researched a tech myself since Education.

This is what I've found in the late game as well. If you have a lot of cities even little ones used for drafting, fishing villages or ice cities as long as you have Slavery they can contribute to the economy by building each of these 4 buildings. The courthouse is needed anyway, jails and intelligence agency only cost another 300 hammers = 10 whipped pop, which is not a lot over say 30 turns with a good food resource or two. The security bureau is more expensive and less good value but many build that as well. I've had 30 cities all producing about 50 EPs per turn and the total EPs per turn soon add up to incredible totals.

I was ahead in tech so I never needed to raise the EP slider but with many cities having the 100% bonus it would be cost effective and probably as good as spending on research. In my newxt game I'll investigate the possibility of researching one tech while stealing another from a rival. With open borders and sharing a religion for discounts it could be cheaper or more effective putting commerce through the EP bonusses than the beakers through science bonusses which are typically 75% at that stage of the game. Is one EP worth the same as a beaker at this stage of the game (circa Industrialism)? I suspect in certain circumstance it can be worth more.

 

[duckduckswan]

Did you throw all of your EP's at Augustus or did you still spread some around the other civs also?

 

[Indiansmoke]

This is what I've found in the late game as well. If you have a lot of cities even little ones used for drafting, fishing villages or ice cities as long as you have Slavery they can contribute to the economy by building each of these 4 buildings. The courthouse is needed anyway, jails and intelligence agency only cost another 300 hammers = 10 whipped pop, which is not a lot over say 30 turns with a good food resource or two. The security bureau is more expensive and less good value but many build that as well. I've had 30 cities all producing about 50 EPs per turn and the total EPs per turn soon add up to incredible totals.

I was ahead in tech so I never needed to raise the EP slider but with many cities having the 100% bonus it would be cost effective and probably as good as spending on research. In my newxt game I'll investigate the possibility of researching one tech while stealing another from a rival. With open borders and sharing a religion for discounts it could be cheaper or more effective putting commerce through the EP bonusses than the beakers through science bonusses which are typically 75% at that stage of the game. Is one EP worth the same as a beaker at this stage of the game (circa Industrialism)? I suspect in certain circumstance it can be worth more.

Stealing techs every 4 turns does not seem realistic. You might be able to pull it off once in every game and that is right after you settle the great spy in the AI capital. After that you need more than 7.000 exp points, each time to steal a tech (assuming middle to late game) which means somewhere between 10-30 turns depending on how much you spend on espionaze

 

[oyzar]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235713
It is certanly very viable to steal tech's in the lategame. Seems to me that the later you get the more powerfull it become.

 

[Indiansmoke]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235713
It is certanly very viable to steal tech's in the lategame. Seems to me that the later you get the more powerfull it become.

The thread, succession game, you are reffering me to has not yet entered late game!!!

Last screen is at 1645AD. Unless you have inside info that is not posted I cannot understand what you mean

 

[r_rolo1]

I think that oyzar accidentally copied the RBtS1b thread instead of RBtS1a one ( this one already finished and with a very impressive finale for a non self-research game )

 

[oyzar]

indeed i did...

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Castles add points to the Soldiers count, hence to the Power graph... But I agree that: " Oh my god, he has castles and he's invading me... must surrender before I'm defeated by those big stony buildings in battle..." syndrom is funny

And Invisiblestalke, you settled or bombed the GSpies you got?

I only got two great spies. One from the Great Wall early which I bombed Ragnar with thinking at the time that I was bombing Ghandi - bit confused by the AI colour schemes. It was a bit of a waste because Ragnar got about one more tech during the whole game.

Second Great Spy built the Scotland Yard in my capital. Bombing at that point would have been a waste - I was getting 1500 EP per turn from the slider and buildings. Scotland Yard gave me around +100 EP/turn.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Did you throw all of your EP's at Augustus or did you still spread some around the other civs also?

Every single one went to Augustus (and before then every single one to Ghandi). I think that if you are using Espionage as a strategy then it makes sense to concentrate all your EPs.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Stealing techs every 4 turns does not seem realistic. You might be able to pull it off once in every game and that is right after you settle the great spy in the AI capital. After that you need more than 7.000 exp points, each time to steal a tech (assuming middle to late game) which means somewhere between 10-30 turns depending on how much you spend on espionaze

Well, I was definitely stealing techs every four turns, sometimes faster than that. And without great spies too. In the late game my economy was generating over 1500 EPs per turn. So in four turns I have built up 6000 EP with my target. I generally stole when my spies had been settled for 5 turns for a 50% discount for settled spies. We had open borders but didn't share a religion. Of course he had built up more EP than me since I kept spending them so I suffered a penalty there, but usually late renaissance / modern techs were costing me from 3000-5000 EP, easily achievable in my four turn window.

I was also able to choose which tech I stole, so by directing Ghandi's research I could often trade two techs I had stolen for one he had researched. Anyway from being in a position of still researching Education in 1600, I have flight, industrialism, plastics and am now researching radio and its not yet 1900. Of those the only tech I researched myself was flight, since I now have every tech that Augustus does.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Well, I was definitely stealing techs every four turns, sometimes faster than that. And without great spies too. In the late game my economy was generating over 1500 EPs per turn. So in four turns I have built up 6000 EP with my target. I generally stole when my spies had been settled for 5 turns for a 50% discount for settled spies. We had open borders but didn't share a religion. Of course he had built up more EP than me since I kept spending them so I suffered a penalty there, but usually late renaissance / modern techs were costing me from 3000-5000 EP, easily achievable in my four turn window.

I was also able to choose which tech I stole, so by directing Ghandi's research I could often trade two techs I had stolen for one he had researched. Anyway from being in a position of still researching Education in 1600, I have flight, industrialism, plastics and am now researching radio and its not yet 1900. Of those the only tech I researched myself was flight, since I now have every tech that Augustus does.

I will have to try it then...

Usually when I settle spies 50% get caught. In my games late medieval -early modern techs cost more than 6.000 points maybe that is because the AI spends a lot on me as well? I am not sure.

Also with the slider at 0 I am making around 300-350 points /turn, that is with about 10-12 cities (no castles or nationalism). I was not aware how far the slider can push the points you are making per turn.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I had a fairly big empire - around 20 cities or so. Add castles and nationalism and build every spy building in every city and it adds up pretty quickly. My economy was in terrible shape from the war due to war weariness but I had a lot of cottages and once the war weariness went and the cottages got worked it started to grow stronger reasonably quickly. Add a merchant mission and emancipation and things started to look respectable.

I just built a lot of spies to counter the fact that some of them would get caught. Usually I had four spies camped in their city and picked the one that had been there the longest to steal the tech. If they failed, the next had a go and so on.

I was playing on a standard map - huge maps have higher tech costs. But the biggest difference is probably the effect of settling the spy for 5 turns. That 50% discount is really worth having. Thats what makes it more effective than research for the same tech.

 

[Weird Piggy]

Techs become much cheaper when you devote all you commerce to espionge because the bonus you receive for having more EP's and when you place a spy stationary for 5 turns.

 

[UncleJJ]

There are other big bonusses for open borders and for having your state religion in the city where you perform the mission. They can significantly affect the costs of this strategy. So send a missionary into the city before you send your spy