The EU

[Mikoyan]

This E.U discussion could go on for ages. I don't like it, you guys do, but it is not our job to predict the future, we shall wait and see, and when it finally ends up in deep sheite, i will come back to this thread and continue the discussion.
But now i have to go build a proper altar to my new godess.

 

[polymath]

The principle of the EU is great, but in practice it is ridiculously, rampantly corrupt.
10% of the EU budget goes missing every year through fraud or misappropriation. That's five billion pounds a year! This is the accepted official figure. 50% of the EU's annual budget is spent on Agricultural Policy, this makes no sense whatsoever!
Remember that within the last 3 or 4 years all the EU commissioners (20 of them!) were forced to resign because of maladministration or malpractice on a scale which left the commissioners no other choice. An internal EU report concluded:"It is becoming difficult to find anyone who has even the slightest sense of responsibility." This maladministration only came to light because of internal leaks. Edith Cresson, for instance, appointed her DENTIST!! to do research which investigators concluded was 'worthless.' Of course, all the commissioners received severance pay - they should have been fined heavily and jailed for negligence.
Each Member of European parliament 'costs' around a million pounds a year. An incomprehensible amount by any standards.
A large part of the problem is that the French and Germans scrupulously ignore EU law when it suits them - in Britain we actually do make an effort to implement these laws that are passed down to us. The former president of the EU, Jaques Santer, regularly ignored EU law when it was in the French national interest to do so. Thanks to Santer's take on trade tarriffs for example, which included refusing to pass laws put forward by the EU, many British textile companies went under.

You might conclude this is an anti-French and German bit of flim-flammery, in truth it is not. The real truth is that the EU is so open to corruption, and there are so few safeguards that it is almost self-fulfilling that it becomes a continent-wide disgrace. Many EU department's budgets are run several years in arrears - we won't know for three or four years if their accounts are in order or not!

So are the people of Britain seriously expected to join such a pathetically mismanaged gravy train which loses ten percent of budget each year to the people who are supposed to be running it for our benefit?
In theory, as I say, the EU is a good idea, but in practice, forget it, it stinks.

 

[Julien]

You cannot 'allow' or 'not allow' fascism to flourish, it is something much more complex than that. And you can not be shure that EU will be a 'total democracy'. One of the strongest powers in the union is Italian dictator Silvio Berlusconi, and we all know his opinions all to well...

I see the future EU like this :

A federal state (ie decentralised government), where each region state will preserve its own cultural identity. A region-state should be a culturally distinct group, with a shared history and a will to live together. That means, don't put Czech and Slovak together, and never put Slovenes, Croatians, Serbs and Albanians in the same group ! This was a mistake of the artificial remodelling of Europe in 1918.

Now, there are 2 opposites movements inside Europe : the national feeling of being European (one nationality, one currency, a common history, some shared values, etc.) and along this regional independantist movements, such as the Flemish in Belgium, the Corsican or Bretons in France, the Basques or Catalans in Spain ; Welsh, Scottish and Irish in UK, etc.
The message is clear, a union, but no uniformisation or dominance of the stronger(more numerous) over the weaker (less numerous). To achieve peace and harmony inside the highly complex amalgam of European cultures/languages and ethnic groups, the federal system with an almost independant cultural government (education, tourism, etc.) is compulsory.

Other sectors of the government, such as the economics and the foreign policies (including the defence) are a must. Basic rights (human rights, etc) should be the same for all the EU and the central government should make sure that all regional gov. stay democratic and respect these basic rights and the freedom of everybody.

My conceptions of region-states is as follow :

1) They represent a distinct cultural group. The language is often a source of regionalist (we will no more speak of nationalist inside the EU) feeling.

For example, in UK and Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (unified, probably) should be made all separate states. All have originally a Celtic langauge (Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic) that differentiates their culture and mentality. England might possibly be divided in 2 or 3 groups as it represents 40 millions people, what would make it a huge group by European standard. Northern, Midlands and Southern English are in some way differents. The only way of deciding is to ask the people themself, by requiring them to vote at a poll regarding this matter.
Other example, the Basque (both Spanish and French) ; it makes long enough they ask for their independance. The message is clear : a Basque State in the EU. Same for Corsica, Little Brittany, Flanders and other regions demanding a autonomous existence from the country they presently belong to.

2) Regional differences inside a language homogenous group.

For example, in Germany, the Laender already exist because of a feeling of heterogenity, due to the numerous dialects, the historical and religious division of the country as well as other factors. Germans are the Europeans with the lowest National pride, says a survey. This doesn't surprise me. A Bavarian feel first Bavarian, then European, then German. I am Belgian and I know very well what it means. Most people don't really feel Belgians anymore, but Flemish or Walloons (the German speaking minority has still more difficult to find its identity ; Walloons, Germans, Belgians. Luxemburger, unique ?).

Spain is at least as fragmented as Germany. Of course, there are the Basque, but they are a small minority and a very special case (Basque is not even a Indo-European language, nobody knows where they come from). Catalans feel Catalan before Spanish. I saw a huge number of cars there with a "C" for Catalunia, instead of a "E" for Espana. They also speak Catalan, which really is between French and Spanish, no more like one than the other.
Galicians also feel they are not quite Spanish, but half Portuguese, or even Celtic. Then, like in Germany, the mentality in Spain chnage radically from region to region.

3) Already existing homogenous group that could pass straight from country to region-state.

In this group I would put the Scandinavic countries, Finland, the Netherlands, Portugal and Greece. Ireland should be reunified, though this is not 100% sure because of the problem of religion.
Austria could be divided in 2 or 3 cultural zones, as mountain Tyrolians have few in common with the people of Wien (Vienna). Their accent and mentality is quite different. Only a poll could tell us the feeling of the people about this. There could be a German-speaking Community encompassing all German Laender as well as Austria. I mean, in addition to the region-state.

4) What should we do with France and England ?

These are 2 big quite homogenous group. Centralisation in France has tried since centuries establishing a single French language and erradicating regional identities. Fortunately, there are still differences between the regions, but probably not strong enough to separate the country in semi-independant states. Most provincial people would feel cheated to see that their taxes have built a wonderful capitol since centuries, just to feel dumped when all the money has been moved there. Anyway, French feel French, and as everybody knows there, first there is Paris (and the Parisian), the France (and the provincials), then the rest of the world (with a little scorn). Things are changing, and French are becoming Europeans (since they were the foundators of the EU with Germany, who were joined by the Benelux and Italy since the begining of this great project 50 years ago). I could see only the following states in France :
Normandy (the Viking French), Alsace (Half-German, Half-French), Corsica (Corsican in the heart), Little Brittany (Bretagne, the Celtic French), Savoy (in a larger Savoy state with Swiss and Italian Savoy, who all speak Savoyard), Basque Land (along with the Spanish one) and Catalan Roussillon (joining the Catalan state in Spain). It seems a lot, but these are only bordering parts of France and altogether not so big. Dividing further would lead to this (maybe) : Gascogne (South-West), Languedoc-Cote D'Azur, Burgundy (Bourgogne), Loire country, Paris-Ile de France, Nord, Wallonia (French speaking Belgium)... and others (?)

What do you think about it.

It should preserve Regional identities and assure that no dictator ever take the power, as there would be no strong man, but a serie of minister for each region-state and a kind of council (and evolution of the European Commission) alondside with the EU Parliament, but only caring for a part of the power (not education, media, etc. which are cultural and then regulated by the states).

I Love Europe !

 

[ComradeDavo]

The EU = Bad, Bad idea
My opinion is much the same as Mikoyans, therefore I need not list my reasons for disliking it.

 

[CurtSibling]

I apologise to Juize, if I had used his name in error...

Sorry, comrade!

I knew I had made you angry because YOU USED BIG BLOCK
CAPITALS!

There's so many communists on this forum,
I lose count sometimes!

I think Europe shold be united, but under it's own democratic govts.

I want to be closer to other European people!

Doesn't anyone else want to meet new people/cultures?

I am a PEOPLE POTATO! (rotten or not)

PS:
The right-wing tories in the UK have exactly the same views, but for different reasons.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Most of Polymath's comments I have to agree with - I am a Tory voter after all But I dissagree with his conclusion, I think a European Union is the thing to aim for. If the present EU gov isn't working, then we should FIX it, not give up the idea completely. A full union is the future, like it of not.
As for the CAP, the original intention seems to have been lost along the way. The idea was that Europe should be as self-sufficiant in food production as possible, rather than be dependant on imports. On a level playing field, the smaller European farms can't compete with the much larger N. American growers, land prices are too high here.