The European Project: the future of the EU.

[r16]

the salient point being if it is "good" for Russia , it is bad . Some Georgian law very much resembles all European laws against foreign actors and the problem only arises from the thing that the foreign actors in that case are Europeans . At this point all must be said to Georgians is that New Turkey has started talking about Batum and think it through about avenging 2008 , considering the casinos are br_thels will soon be protected by peacekeepers and whatnot as soon as they are endangered by some evil Russian re-conquest .


oh yeah , so far behind the curve in following the news . Has Romanian President said he will legally step down when his term ends and the Speaker of the Parliament will replace him as per their laws ?

echo chambers ? Can't make any comments for Slovakia as the West had to give some crumbs and good posts go down . Remember how good posts went up around places ?

 

[Snowygerry]

Radio Free Liberty did not bring down the USSR, Trump did not win because of Russian propaganda, and Romanians were not deceived en masse by a propaganda campaign sufficient to necessitate the cancelation of an election.

In each case, there were real issues the publics had that fed discontent unaddressed or addressed insufficiently by political elites(who often acted contrary to those concerns)

Not buying education as a panacea to all social ills, either, but that's sorta beyond the scope of the specifics.

I doubt that, every election is like the Eurovison Song contest these days, they just elect whoever they see on TikTok, the greatest freak first, not necessarily the best song

There are no magical "political elites" governing your life, most everyone in the EU elects their own representatives, and they've been electing chumps recently, imho because the entire reservoir of discontent voters can easily be mobilized by very specific ad campaigns.

In the old days they were just at home making angry faces and their vote was dispersed.


Could you give an example of these unadressed issues ?

 

[Snowygerry]

Assad's fall, for all we know, may have been more than just Russia (due to Ukraine) being unable to station as many forces there. But at any rate, if we look so easily at countries as "regimes", we should expect exactly the same from "other teams"...

The "other teams" lack this particular ability, an autocrat is always at risk of being overthrown by his own population, the liberal is not.

Even regimes ostensibly stable atm., like Russia, China, or Iran. And they know it all too well.

 

[EvaDK]

But at any rate, if we look so easily at countries as "regimes", we should expect exactly the same from "other teams"...

Well, a 'regime' is often defined as an authoritarian rule concentrated around a leader figure. Assad fits the bill. Also, authoritarian leaders are usually not in the habit of speaking of Western democracies as regimes, because their propaganda often labels 'democracy' in itself as a derogatory context; I lost count of how many times Putin and his cabal equates democracy with decay, weakness, corruption, Nazism. Putin in 2007 declared himself the worlds sole true democrat; implying that all other democracies weren't real democracies at all.

So, your prediction has been in effect already for many years.

 

[Voidwalkin]

On the other hand, when the goal of the propaganda is to instill cynicism and as such apathy...

A person evaluating the state of their society/government/culture will call upon the sum whole of their memories when making a judgement. It's holistic, and numerically, the number of propaganda-influenced experiences and consumptions are light in quantity relative to vast swath of recollections used in opinion formation.

Propaganda with that goal may occur simultaneously to shifts in a persons environment, observations of which lead to more cynicism, but I think they're a gust of wind compared to, say, the tectonics of the past two decades of stagnation.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, a 'regime' is often defined as an authoritarian rule concentrated around a leader figure. Assad fits the bill. Also, authoritarian leaders are usually not in the habit of speaking of Western democracies as regimes, because their propaganda often labels 'democracy' in itself as a derogatory context; I lost count of how many times Putin and his cabal equates democracy with decay, weakness, corruption, Nazism. Putin in 2007 declared himself the worlds sole true democrat; implying that all other democracies weren't real democracies at all.

So, your prediction has been in effect already for many years.

Russia got to this by banning parties and rigging elections, and that this seems to be just fine if done simply for "the other team", as in Romania, doesn't allow much optimism about democracy.
I am sure many people there also thought that it is for the best, as it serves their "interests" and team perspective. Still, maybe it is possible for some to just not notice the similarities, thinking that they are aliens while we are human and thus democratic regardless of how dumb or jingoistic or even undemocratic.

 

[Voidwalkin]

I am sure many people there also thought that it is for the best, as it serves their "interests" and team perspective. Still, maybe it is possible for some to just not notice the similarities, thinking that they are aliens while we are human and thus democratic regardless of how dumb or jingoistic or even undemocratic

I note that generally, dissent is thought to be a consequence of poor education and is therefore to be categorically ignored.

This was applied to Trump voters, Brexit voters, those skeptical of covid mandates regardless of the source of opposition, be it logical, economic, or ethical, and is probably applied to most if not all movements skeptical of the EU(which as far as I can tell are mostly on the right)

The scientific method is sound, and best by test, but from its efficacy a faith has arisen in not simply it alone but also some of the ethical positions common to that strata. Faith does tend to evolve into dogma.

 

[Gorbles]

I note that generally, dissent is thought to be a consequence of poor education and is therefore to be categorically ignored.

This was applied to Trump voters, Brexit voters, those skeptical of covid mandates regardless of the source of opposition, be it logical, economic, or ethical, and is probably applied to most if not all movements skeptical of the EU(which as far as I can tell are mostly on the right)

It's applied in a few ways. Firstly is by those who swear by the mythical idea of a meritocracy. Secondly by those who believe that education alone is the solution (it's a part of it). Thirdly, by those who suggest that maybe someone should be mildly educated about a subject before opining on a subject. The third category is often conflated with the previous categories, often to undermine the actual use of being informed about a subject matter.

Your examples include several examples of said conflation.

 

[Kyriakos]

The Eu has no shortage of issues, but one which is overlooked by a certain crowd (I don't mean on CFC; besides, this is a small site so whatever, we don't influence anything ) is that it isn't its own thing, but clearly a vassal to another power (the US). Russia has severe issues with democracy, but it is its own side, not a vassal. Some overlook still that they are neither Athens nor Sparta, but some minor side in a coalition which is a hegemony in all things but name. Even if Russia isn't Sparta either, at least it would be Thebes while Eu is some islands in the aegean and some coastal states in Ionia, in the Athenian commonwelth.

 

[r16]

like the German Goverment is down or what ?

 

[banzay13]

The Eu has no shortage of issues, but one which is overlooked by a certain crowd (I don't mean on CFC; besides, this is a small site so whatever, we don't influence anything
) is that it isn't its own thing, but clearly a vassal to another power (the US). Russia has severe issues with democracy, but it is its own side, not a vassal. Some overlook still that they are neither Athens nor Sparta, but some minor side in a coalition which is a hegemony in all things but name. Even if Russia isn't Sparta either, at least it would be Thebes. Eu is some islands in the aegean and some coastal states in Ionia, in the Athenian commonwelth.

You don't understand the true power of propoganda!
How dare you, compare high elf with Mordors orcs?!

 

[Kyriakos]

like the German Goverment is down or what ?

Turkey would be the Getae btw
Complete with your own cult of Zalmoxis.

 

[r16]

trump supposedly said New Turkey tried to capture Syria for thousands of years . Like your claim is obviously wrong .

 

[Kyriakos]

Only positive there - if there actually is anything positive - is that it may lead to Stan forming too.
Hopefully the five million christians won't be massacred by the IS and other-jihadist-borne new government.
And to bring this rapidly back to the Eu: much like on day zero we heard that no more asylum will be given to syrians, expect the same for ukrainians when the war ends - despite their wish for an exodus then more than ever.

 

[EvaDK]

Russia got to this by banning parties and rigging elections, and that this seems to be just fine if done simply for "the other team", as in Romania, doesn't allow much optimism about democracy.

The Romanian Supreme Court hasn't banned political parties, nor has it rigged the election. I kinda wish we had some Romania based forum members that could educate and inform us more in detail what's going on and what they feel about it.

The Eu has no shortage of issues, but one which is overlooked by a certain crowd (I don't mean on CFC; besides, this is a small site so whatever, we don't influence anything ) is that it isn't its own thing, but clearly a vassal to another power (the US). Russia has severe issues with democracy, but it is its own side, not a vassal. Some overlook still that they are neither Athens nor Sparta, but some minor side in a coalition which is a hegemony in all things but name. Even if Russia isn't Sparta either, at least it would be Thebes. Eu is some islands in the aegean and some coastal states in Ionia, in the Athenian commonwelth.

Most EU member states did pretty well in following their own interests and convictions when the younger Bush was US President, especially in connection to the Iraq War. Same during Trump's first tenure. Trump now threatening China, Mexico, the EU and Canada with tariffs if they don't dance after his tune, doesn't sound like a 'vassal relationship' with any of those entities to me.

If you read what some Russian intellectuals on the far right have been saying in the last two decades, Moscow doesn't really compare to ancient Sparta, Athens or Thebes. Instead they would argue that Moscow/Russia represents the true successor to ancient Rome, or more precisely perhaps the Byzantine part of that defunct empire. Moscow being refereed to as 'The Third Rome' is a real thing over there.

Ancient Rome famously collapsed due to an influx of overreach, senseless wars, internal division, corruption, disease, economic turmoil and political incompetence. In that sense, it represents a rather strange example for 'modern Russia' to put on a piedestal, I would think.

 

[banzay13]

The Romanian Supreme Court hasn't banned political parties, nor has it rigged the election. I kinda wish we had some Romania based forum members that could educate and inform us more in detail what's going on and what they feel about it.



Most EU member states did pretty well in following their own interests and convictions when the younger Bush was US President, especially in connection to the Iraq War. Same during Trump's first tenure. Trump now threatening China, Mexico, the EU and Canada with tariffs if they don't dance after his tune, doesn't sound like a 'vassal relationship' with any of those entities to me.

If you read what some Russian intellectuals on the far right have been saying in the last two decades, Moscow doesn't really compare to ancient Sparta, Athens or Thebes. Instead they would argue that Moscow/Russia represents the true successor to ancient Rome, or more precisely perhaps the Byzantine part of that defunct empire. Moscow being refereed to as 'The Third Rome' is a real thing over there.

Ancient Rome famously collapsed due to an influx of overreach, senseless wars, internal division, corruption, disease, economic turmoil and political incompetence. In that sense, it represents a rather strange example for 'modern Russia' to put on a piedestal, I would think.

I would say ancient Rome collapsed coz - climate change, barbarian pressure and different plagues.
Not coz political system

 

[Gorbles]

I would say ancient Rome collapsed coz - climate change, barbarian pressure and different plagues.
Not coz political system

Famously, the line of succession and subsequent governance never caused any issues in Ancient Rome.

 

[EvaDK]

I would say ancient Rome collapsed coz - climate change, barbarian pressure and different plagues.
Not coz political system

33 Roman emperors were assassinated or executed. That's excluding the ones that survived or foiled attempts made on their life.
30 civil wars fought during both the Republic and Empire.

Ancient Rome isn't exactly a poster child for political stability, I think.

PS: sorry for going off-topic a bit here; won't be making more posts on this. If anyone wants to continue this sub-debate, feel free to start a new thread.

 

[banzay13]

Famously, the line of succession and subsequent governance never caused any issues in Ancient Rome.

Since old rebublic where was a lot of different issue. And civil wars. But it didn't stop expansion of Roman Empire

 

[banzay13]

33 Roman emperors were assassinated or executed. That's excluding the ones that survived or foiled attempts made on their life.
30 civil wars fought during both the Republic and Empire.

Ancient Rome isn't exactly a poster child for political stability, I think.

Yes. But how it expand then? Continuously?
Civil wars, political crisis was always in history or Rome