The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Kyriakos]

Hearing that from those who supported the losing candidate does not make it true.

Donald Trump had been president for four years and Kamala Harris had been vice President for nearly four years.

The way I see it; they were known factors and the US electorate knew what was happening.

The general point is that there is no standard of being aware, and definitely no logic in arguing that people should be aware 'enough' so that their vote actually is counted and the election stands; otherwise propaganda won the election and it must be cancelled.
But perhaps McCarthyism will fare even better in the Eu, fortified with actually cancelling elections.

 

[Gorbles]

Depends on how you define the issue. In the recent US elections, we heard that the population simply wasn't able to discern what was happening, also due to propaganda. Elections don't have robots as voters so that they can be programmed to pass a definitive test. If you worry that people are swayed by propaganda, that's tough; maybe prevent any party you don't like from running as an equally democratic alternative to outright banning results you don't like. The definition of democracy is that everyone votes as they wish to, without prerequisites as to why. People can vote for bad parties and can vote for stupid reasons; it's absolutely part of a democracy.

I define the issue as "actual and real tampering by foreign parties".

My position of "this being bad nomatter who does it" leads me to conclude that there aren't really many effective defenses against it. Even cancelling or otherwise annulling an election is a gamble - even when done by the right people for good reasons.

These things should be discussed by leaving our bias at the door, though. Would uppi's post be as convincing if its testimony went the other way? Or would it be dismissed as anecdotal?

I'm one of the first in line, usually, to say that (major) Western powers shouldn't rely on external boogeymen when it comes to political issues they've cultivated themselves. Brexit was the UK's problem long before alleged Russian interference.

But two things can be right at the same time.

McCarthyism

lol, c'mon.

Why get me to bother with a serious post and then pull this kind of stuff? Do you even care, or is this just "beat the EU and any related posters with a proverbial stick" time?

Does it matter what anyone posts, or have you apparently - like the people you're criticising - already made up your mind?

 

[EnglishEdward]

@ Kyriakos

Yes, but all sides put out propaganda and promises that are in part just wish fulfilment.

If the candidate the great power (or EU) likes wins, then the propaganda is ignored.

But if the candidate the great power (or EU) doesn't like wins, such propaganda is used to disqualify them.

 

[Kyriakos]

I define the issue as "actual and real tampering by foreign parties".

My position of "this being bad nomatter who does it" leads me to conclude that there aren't really many effective defenses against it. Even cancelling or otherwise annulling an election is a gamble - even when done by the right people for good reasons.

These things should be discussed by leaving our bias at the door, though. Would uppi's post be as convincing if its testimony went the other way? Or would it be dismissed as anecdotal?

I'm one of the first in line, usually, to say that (major) Western powers shouldn't rely on external boogeymen when it comes to political issues they've cultivated themselves. Brexit was the UK's problem long before alleged Russian interference.

But two things can be right at the same time.

lol, c'mon.

Why get me to bother with a serious post and then pull this kind of stuff? Do you even care, or is this just "beat the EU and any related posters with a proverbial stick" time?

Does it matter what anyone posts, or have you apparently - like the people you're criticising - already made up your mind?

Is the difference between "agent of soviet propaganda" and "agent of russian propaganda" that great in your view? ^^ Obv it is the updated version, not a hunt for communists.
The name of the current enemy doesn't even matter much; it is to be China too (TikTok etc). Eu follows the US and does as told; it was like that even in good times, let alone now that there's an energy stranglehold and you will be switched off if you don't.

I don't see what you saw in your example of a "cancelled election" in the brexit referendum; Cameron kept it despite not liking the result at all, he didn't keep it because he liked it and didn't mind the tampering.

 

[Gorbles]

Is the difference between "agent of soviet propaganda" and "agent of russian propaganda" that great in your view? ^^ Obv it is the updated version, not a hunt for communists.
The name of the current enemy doesn't even matter much; it is to be China too (TikTok etc). Eu follows the US and does as told; it was like that even in good times, let alone now that there's an energy stranglehold and you will be switched off if you don't.

I don't see what you saw in your example of a "cancelled election" in the brexit referendum; Cameron kept it despite not liking the result at all, he didn't keep it because he liked it and didn't mind the tampering.

You're unable to answer the question, basically. If that's the case, just say so. No need to assume things about my view.

Cameron didn't keep anything. He jogged on. The Tory party kept it - and implemented it - because they liked it. There was no pressure to do much about it, regardless of the impact it had.

 

[Snowygerry]

Yes, elected politicians are, unlike the ordinary electorate, often bought.

I wonder what the going rate for buying a Belgian MP was/is:

How many Euros, young girls or boys or whatever ?

Well you don’t have to do it for the money, it’s a typical case of paying peanuts and getting monkeys,

But a briefing note compiled by Romania’s interior ministry reveals that so-called social media influencers were recruited by intermediary companies, at least one of which appears to have been a ghost entity, to promote an unnamed “ideal candidate” profile before the election on TikTok, Instagram and Facebook. These influencers earned around €80 per post for every 20,000 followers they had.

Romania’s presidential front-runner Georgescu benefited from Russia-style booster campaign, declassified docs say

The files, released by the outgoing liberal president, don’t specify the Kremlin tried to swing the election in Călin Georgescu’s favor but strongly suggest it.

www.politico.eu

 

[EnglishEdward]

And what about the other candidates? Did none of them, or their supporters, use social media to promote themselves ?

Does the EU not promote itself ? And thereby implicitly promote pro EU candidates ?

 

[AdrienIer]

And what about the other candidates? Did none of them, or their supporters, use social media to promote themselves ?

Does the EU not promote itself ? And thereby implicitly promote pro EU candidates ?

The issue is apparently that he reported no campaign financing, claiming that he spent 0 money on anything. So no traceability of who paid for them.

 

[Snowygerry]

That is for the Romanian court, (or interior ministery, depending on their law.) to decide it is it not, surely you would not want the EU to interfere in the internal affairs of the member states..

But the EU can offer a counterweight to lobbying machine of TikTok, for an individual nation state that is very difficult.

TikTok is being scrutinized for its handling of the first round of the Romanian presidential election, which propelled ultranationalist and far-right Călin Georgescu to victory, partly thanks to a late, explosive surge in view counts of his TikTok content.
TikTok vehemently defended its election approach during the European Parliament hearing. Caroline Greer, the company’s top lobbyist in Brussels, said the company had 95 Romanian content moderators, and claimed this was a larger number of local moderators than other platforms.

The Sputnik campaign included 11 accounts with close to 140,000 followers. TikTok said the takedown was part of a regular sweep and not necessarily linked to Romania. Sputnik was banned on the platform because of interference attempts, but new accounts are set up regularly.
In September, TikTok already disrupted a network of 22 accounts that sought to target Romanian audiences with misinformation and "promote narratives critical of the current Romanian government," the company said at the time.

TikTok removed 3 influence campaigns during Romania’s elections

Social media firm faces questioning by European Parliament lawmakers over networks that aided Romanian far-right win.

www.politico.eu

 

[Verbose]

And what about the other candidates? Did none of them, or their supporters, use social media to promote themselves ?

Does the EU not promote itself ? And thereby implicitly promote pro EU candidates ?

You mean candidates in national elections with policies that are pro-EU promote themselves.

Unless it's the European Parliament elections. Then the political parties represented in it do get campaign contributions. The EU has a pretty detailed homepage dedicated to how this works, which party got what, etc.

Funding European political parties

Learn how a European political party is financed by the European Parliament's budget.

www.europarl.europa.eu

 

[EnglishEdward]

If you want to pretend that the EU and its non Romanian supporters do not promote EU policies and thereby
indirectly promote Romanian presidential candidates who espouse a pro EU position that is up to you.

I simply don't believe that the only foreign influence on the Romanian election was bad mad Vlad.

 

[Gorbles]

The issue is apparently that he reported no campaign financing, claiming that he spent 0 money on anything. So no traceability of who paid for them.

The problem is, Euroskeptics only care about this kind of thing when the EU or its adherents are the ones doing it.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I agree.

But I make the point that similarly Euro enthusiasts only care if it is
when anti-EU candidates or their adherents do it.

Looking more widely.

We have over the years had a succession of claims about Vlad Putin's
back door financing, and extraordinary social media brainwashing proficiency.

UK voters only voted to Leave because Vlad Putin financed...

US voters only voted for Donald Trump because Vlad Putin....

Romanians only voted that presidential candidate in because Vlad Putin...

Blimey; this Vlad Putin seems the devil incarnate.

When I was young there were claims of Russian soviet gold financing lefties,
now there are claims of Russian fascist gold financing righties.
There may be some truth in these, but I doubt that it is significant.

Still in five to ten years time, it will likely all be about Chinese gold.

 

[Gorbles]

I agree.

But I make the point that similarly Euro enthusiasts only care if it is
when anti-EU candidates or their adherents do it.

Nah, some of us have consistent principles. I even said Brexit was a problem separate of any Russian involvement, a little while up. That doesn't stop Russian involvement being a thing, however.

Generally this thing called "proof" is what's required, and so far all you have in response to a bunch of people providing links is "I don't believe".

Well, quite. There's no arguing with belief.

 

[Kyriakos]

That is for the Romanian court, (or interior ministery, depending on their law.) to decide it is it not, surely you would not want the EU to interfere in the internal affairs of the member states..

What do you think directly condoning the decision to cancel the election is? Neutrality?

 

[Snowygerry]

I think the Romanian election is ongoing, and will be closely monitored, it is not up to the EU to "condone" Romanian decisions.

This is all a storm in a tea cup imho, as if there is nothing else going on in the world

Commission, online platforms and civil society increase monitoring during Romanian elections

This relates to the exercise of the Commission\'s competences under the Digital Services Act and does not address the Romanian electoral process, which is a matter for the Romanian authorities and ultimately the Romanian people.

ec.europa.eu

This relates to the exercise of the Commission's competences under the DSA and does not address the Romanian electoral process, which is a matter for the Romanian authorities and ultimately the Romanian people.

 

[Kyriakos]

This is all a storm in a tea cup imho, as if there is nothing else going on in the world

Indeed, with the dangers we face from China/Russia/aliens, it's foolish to even have elections...

 

[banzay13]

Indeed, with the dangers we face from China/Russia/aliens, it's foolish to even have elections, risking objectively the best part from winning. But you can't easily convince the purists who still think they are essential to democracy.

Don't look up

 

[Gorbles]

What do you think directly condoning the decision to cancel the election is? Neutrality?

Can we all think about the stones and glass houses thing for a sec?

Maybe?

We're all posting our opinion. Nobody is truly neutral here. Nobody is likely to change their position, either (certainly, not two noted Euroskeptics and a pro-Russian poster, nevermind those arguing from other positions). If all we have are needless strawmen a.k.a. "why even have elections", it truly is a tad pointless, no?

 

[banzay13]

Can we all think about the stones and glass houses thing for a sec?

Maybe?

We're all posting our opinion. Nobody is truly neutral here. Nobody is likely to change their position, either (certainly, not two noted Euroskeptics and a pro-Russian poster, nevermind those arguing from other positions). If all we have are needless strawmen a.k.a. "why even have elections", it truly is a tad pointless, no?

The ppl stop talking with opponents, that happen?
Just now we see it Syria. After, some kind, of military victory by Asad, he dint do anything to communicate with opponents. Not Iran or Russia, not Turkey could force him share some power with "rebels" and Kurds. And now new war.
Something similar with Trump assassination attempt.
If ppl stop talking even online, nothing good happen