- Joined
- Apr 11, 2011
- Messages
- 11,902
Apart from having a whacking great Octopus next to you it looks great.
The First 25 Turns
- Thread starter Fluphen Azine
- Start date
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
The game got away from me like usual.
I have a hard time changing the plan.
Should be a win but I had to go through 75 turns of slog.
I made plenty of mistakes but as long as someone doesn't DoW my backside I should be ok.
Even if they do now I think I am ok but nothing fancy and I can't see winning before mid 200s.
I wrote down most of the First 25 moves and I can see how I just got stubborn on some stuff.
Where a bunch of mistakes happened.
It worked out but I certainly don't feel good about how I went about it.
At turn 130 now the slog seems worth it as I can just ICS.
Last edited:
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2011
- Messages
- 2,349
LOL. Great start. Uh huh.
And this is why you go slinger first.
And this is why you go slinger first.
Last edited by a moderator:
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
I hear what you are saying.
This time I went Builder/Settler and the AI decided to travel 15 or more tiles to attack me.
I am trying to listen to these better players who say it works most of the time.
I also got the Free Settler from Pantheon so there is that.
I ended up going warrior x 6 or so to save my two cities and it worked out upgrading to swords but was slow going.
Slingers mixed into Archers and Xbows but it was a pain.
If the other neighbor attacked it might of been doom for me.
Turns out I wiped out one Civ and ICSed after that... not very good though... 20 cities at turn 170.
In a stalemate war with other neighbor for awhile still but the game is over.
Just depends on how I want to end it.
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2011
- Messages
- 2,349
Settled next to tobacco for fast pantheon.
Slinger -> Settler-> Builder (nothing for initial builder to do. Jungle starts tend to be slinger first).
One of the huts got craftsmanship. That was important. However, if you don't get Craftsmanship boost, just research it. Don't bother waiting for the techs to improve 3 tiles in jungle starts. That's a trap. Also, massing units in Jungle Starts is perfectly fine without Craftsmanship since you can recover later thx to millions of chops.
3 cities T30ish.
Forward settled my targets.
Massed slingers into archers.
Improved forward city and lost a city on purpose so I could pillage. Also, free roads into the enemy base.
Took it back and continued on with 6 archers, and eventually chariots.
Stopped once neighbor was dead.
Final note: if a barb camp is to the right of your capital, settle to the left. That way you can ignore the barb units that spawn because barb units can't capture capitals.
Key to this is the easy archery boost, and the early faith for religious settlements.
On standard maps/ smaller maps slinger first is pretty much always the best. Most reliable. Larger maps= scout first.
Archery boost is critical.
EDIT: Oh yeah, this was also one of those military tradition and wheel after archery but before anything else games. Total and complete violence (built one campus for boost, but that was it) with disposal chariots vs catapults. Eventually got Pingala. Very important.
Slinger -> Settler-> Builder (nothing for initial builder to do. Jungle starts tend to be slinger first).
One of the huts got craftsmanship. That was important. However, if you don't get Craftsmanship boost, just research it. Don't bother waiting for the techs to improve 3 tiles in jungle starts. That's a trap. Also, massing units in Jungle Starts is perfectly fine without Craftsmanship since you can recover later thx to millions of chops.
3 cities T30ish.
Forward settled my targets.
Massed slingers into archers.
Improved forward city and lost a city on purpose so I could pillage. Also, free roads into the enemy base.
Took it back and continued on with 6 archers, and eventually chariots.
Stopped once neighbor was dead.
Final note: if a barb camp is to the right of your capital, settle to the left. That way you can ignore the barb units that spawn because barb units can't capture capitals.
Key to this is the easy archery boost, and the early faith for religious settlements.
On standard maps/ smaller maps slinger first is pretty much always the best. Most reliable. Larger maps= scout first.
Archery boost is critical.
EDIT: Oh yeah, this was also one of those military tradition and wheel after archery but before anything else games. Total and complete violence (built one campus for boost, but that was it) with disposal chariots vs catapults. Eventually got Pingala. Very important.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2011
- Messages
- 11,902
I played a few turns last night... builder - settler - warrior - slinger, slinger, slinger.
Deity, central civ with close neighbours, yes you will be attacked and I took a risk not starting warrior but it seemed Ok. Just do not push your luck too far. Mining, AH, pottery, writing, archery was delayed but I was sort of baiting someone to attack and got defensive tactical CS for doing so.
Game certainly is not going to be any record breaker but I have never disagreed that not every game goes perfectly. This is also a great example of having a double iron city which would be great early if you knew about it but settling there early you just would not do without prior knowledge. A 3rd dead barb would have been useful but I did not start scout or warrior to get one.
Last edited:
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
I forgot to take more pictures.
This time I took turn 1 and turn 25 but wrote down basically what I did and when I did it.
Looking back I can see some serious mistakes that I made that I could of easily corrected.
This is why I post the information to be analyzed or mocked because it really does help me.
Turn 1 : I couldn't decide if it would be better to settle near or on the tobacco or just settle in place.
In hindsight perhaps in place would of been better to be faster or perhaps just cross the river.
I am not sure if settling on turn 4 is worth a plains hill, tobacco luxury and faith pantheon.
I can see both sides but wonder if just turn 1 settle is better for speed.
As usual, I threw caution to the wind and decided to settle the plains hill, even though the Kraken was waiting!
Turn 4: Settle on Tobacco as already stated.
Meanwhile I had moved my Warrior to the west and found a hut near the second copy of Tobacco.
Mining First
Builder First
Turn 6: The hut gave me a Free Scout so that was nice.
Scout heads to the South since it gave 3 moves.
Turn 7: Akkad CS Again interestingly enough since that was the CS in the last episode.
Does Akkad always have a NW inside of its borders?
It did last time and this time. (Mount Roraima)
I thought about what Lilly Lancer said how you could attack it and capture it with 5 archers.
I also figured that would be difficult for my skill set being that it is 10 tiles away from Capital.
I was not the first meet with Akkad which was a bit sad.
Warrior sees an injured Barb Scout and heads to block him off or kill him to the SE.
Turn 9: NE Barb Scout appears and locates the capital.
Warrior heads back to Capital but is 5 movements away minimum.
My Scout heads to the SE and finds Palenque for the first meet of the Science CS which is nice.
Turn 10: Volcano to the direct North of Capital Erupts.
Warrior nears Capital to protect from possible Barb Invasion.
Scout still heads SE and sees another Hut.
Turn 11: Mining Finished onto Animal Husbandry.
Gems Open up in Capital Borders.
Scout 1 tile away from Hut.
Turn 12: Builder Finished.
I work on an immediate Settler.
Hut brings in 40 Gold.
I have a little over 100 Gold and this is where I have to make a decision.
Save Gold for buying Builder or Monument or Troops or use it now for Tiles.
I most likely have to buy the tiles since I have the Builder and want the Boost.
Scout locates Barb Camp but Palenque's Warriors are taking it out.
Turn 13: Builder heading to Gems.
Turn 14: Hungry finds me basically.
I send him a delegation.
He is kinda far away and I don't see much hate.
I sell him both Gems for small gold... 4 gpt only.
Perhaps I should of gifted him one?
Warrior heads to the East to see how far away he is.
Turn 15: Scout watches Barb Camp disappear.
Another Hut is located nearby though.
I use the Gold to buy the Cows and Deer to improve for the Boost.
Hut gives me Sailing Boost.
I notice one set of Horses close to the NE of Capital.
Turn 17: Working on Boosted Craftsmanship
It seems I have enough space to be safe so I make the mistake of going Pottery in hope of Writing for Early Campus.
Just Greed or not thinking properly.
Better would of been to just get Bronze Working and get the Ikanda for the Era Score.
Plus just seems better playing as Zulu.
In hindsight, I don't have any reason for this Early Campus since I don't have some great Campus Spot.
However, I like living with my choices no matter how poor.
Warrior keeps heading East and finds some difficult land with Hungary Borders.
They seem so far away that I don't have to worry.
I select Discipline and the +1 Production for the Cards.
Turn 19: Scout heads to the West near the Lake to uncover some missed map area.
Turn 20: 3 Pop and 2 turns away till settler is finished.
Scout Heads SE and Warrior back to the Capital to protect.
No Barb Camp located so perhaps Hungary killed them.
Turn 22: Rome is next door dropping cities in front of me and I wanted to settle the Second Tobacco.
I don't want to upset Rome more than they already are so I head up to the Mountain to the East of the Volcano.
It is near the Horses at least and seems the safer choice.
I am set on Early Writing even though I feel it is a complete mistake.
Turn 24: Barb Camp appears to the south near Akkad.
Warrior gets to the Capital
Turn 25: Settler is in place ready to settle on Turn 26.
I kinda see why better players say to settle in place because those missed turns really add up against you.
Probably should of focused more on Military and Bronze Working.
Here is the Turn 25 Screenshot.
This thread is to get better at the first 25 turns but I see no harm in adding some screenshots of what happened.
Not long after Turn 25 Hungary decided to DoW me and I ended up having to build 6 Warriors and some Slingers.
When this happens I don't do a very good job at building anything else.
I have seen others get out settlers while this is going on but I just got focused on War Only.
I did get the Free Settler from the Pantheon and had 3 cities out.
I killed most of his army and was on one of his Expos Doorstep but had to wait for Swords.
I ended up giving him peace for his Gold and Luxuries.
I saved up all the Gold and built some Monuments, Builders, Horses and saved most of the Gold to Upgrade.
Settled the 3 city near the two Iron which helped.
I got in a Campus and Library.
I ended up with a Dark Age First followed by Normal.
I did manage back to back Golden Ages after that mess.
I eventually attacked him this time with Swords and a couple Xbows along with the Horses.
It took some time but I got in a couple Impis.
I was able to get the first Expo and eventually his whole Empire but late at around turn 115 or so.
DoFed Japan but forgot to send Delegates to the Northern Neighbor and he hated me ever since.
Found some other Civs and was able to work on expansion.
I ended up being able to settle a bunch of land where Hungary could of settled.
Even at turn 170 I haven't settled all of it just yet.
He had so much room so attacking me was odd.
This time I took turn 1 and turn 25 but wrote down basically what I did and when I did it.
Looking back I can see some serious mistakes that I made that I could of easily corrected.
This is why I post the information to be analyzed or mocked because it really does help me.
Spoiler Turn 1 Zulu :
Turn 1 : I couldn't decide if it would be better to settle near or on the tobacco or just settle in place.
In hindsight perhaps in place would of been better to be faster or perhaps just cross the river.
I am not sure if settling on turn 4 is worth a plains hill, tobacco luxury and faith pantheon.
I can see both sides but wonder if just turn 1 settle is better for speed.
As usual, I threw caution to the wind and decided to settle the plains hill, even though the Kraken was waiting!
Turn 4: Settle on Tobacco as already stated.
Meanwhile I had moved my Warrior to the west and found a hut near the second copy of Tobacco.
Mining First
Builder First
Turn 6: The hut gave me a Free Scout so that was nice.
Scout heads to the South since it gave 3 moves.
Turn 7: Akkad CS Again interestingly enough since that was the CS in the last episode.
Does Akkad always have a NW inside of its borders?
It did last time and this time. (Mount Roraima)
I thought about what Lilly Lancer said how you could attack it and capture it with 5 archers.
I also figured that would be difficult for my skill set being that it is 10 tiles away from Capital.
I was not the first meet with Akkad which was a bit sad.
Warrior sees an injured Barb Scout and heads to block him off or kill him to the SE.
Turn 9: NE Barb Scout appears and locates the capital.
Warrior heads back to Capital but is 5 movements away minimum.
My Scout heads to the SE and finds Palenque for the first meet of the Science CS which is nice.
Turn 10: Volcano to the direct North of Capital Erupts.
Warrior nears Capital to protect from possible Barb Invasion.
Scout still heads SE and sees another Hut.
Turn 11: Mining Finished onto Animal Husbandry.
Gems Open up in Capital Borders.
Scout 1 tile away from Hut.
Turn 12: Builder Finished.
I work on an immediate Settler.
Hut brings in 40 Gold.
I have a little over 100 Gold and this is where I have to make a decision.
Save Gold for buying Builder or Monument or Troops or use it now for Tiles.
I most likely have to buy the tiles since I have the Builder and want the Boost.
Scout locates Barb Camp but Palenque's Warriors are taking it out.
Turn 13: Builder heading to Gems.
Turn 14: Hungry finds me basically.
I send him a delegation.
He is kinda far away and I don't see much hate.
I sell him both Gems for small gold... 4 gpt only.
Perhaps I should of gifted him one?
Warrior heads to the East to see how far away he is.
Turn 15: Scout watches Barb Camp disappear.
Another Hut is located nearby though.
I use the Gold to buy the Cows and Deer to improve for the Boost.
Hut gives me Sailing Boost.
I notice one set of Horses close to the NE of Capital.
Turn 17: Working on Boosted Craftsmanship
It seems I have enough space to be safe so I make the mistake of going Pottery in hope of Writing for Early Campus.
Just Greed or not thinking properly.
Better would of been to just get Bronze Working and get the Ikanda for the Era Score.
Plus just seems better playing as Zulu.
In hindsight, I don't have any reason for this Early Campus since I don't have some great Campus Spot.
However, I like living with my choices no matter how poor.
Warrior keeps heading East and finds some difficult land with Hungary Borders.
They seem so far away that I don't have to worry.
I select Discipline and the +1 Production for the Cards.
Turn 19: Scout heads to the West near the Lake to uncover some missed map area.
Turn 20: 3 Pop and 2 turns away till settler is finished.
Scout Heads SE and Warrior back to the Capital to protect.
No Barb Camp located so perhaps Hungary killed them.
Turn 22: Rome is next door dropping cities in front of me and I wanted to settle the Second Tobacco.
I don't want to upset Rome more than they already are so I head up to the Mountain to the East of the Volcano.
It is near the Horses at least and seems the safer choice.
I am set on Early Writing even though I feel it is a complete mistake.
Turn 24: Barb Camp appears to the south near Akkad.
Warrior gets to the Capital
Turn 25: Settler is in place ready to settle on Turn 26.
I kinda see why better players say to settle in place because those missed turns really add up against you.
Probably should of focused more on Military and Bronze Working.
Here is the Turn 25 Screenshot.
Spoiler Turn 25 Zulu :
This thread is to get better at the first 25 turns but I see no harm in adding some screenshots of what happened.
Not long after Turn 25 Hungary decided to DoW me and I ended up having to build 6 Warriors and some Slingers.
When this happens I don't do a very good job at building anything else.
I have seen others get out settlers while this is going on but I just got focused on War Only.
I did get the Free Settler from the Pantheon and had 3 cities out.
I killed most of his army and was on one of his Expos Doorstep but had to wait for Swords.
I ended up giving him peace for his Gold and Luxuries.
I saved up all the Gold and built some Monuments, Builders, Horses and saved most of the Gold to Upgrade.
Settled the 3 city near the two Iron which helped.
I got in a Campus and Library.
I ended up with a Dark Age First followed by Normal.
I did manage back to back Golden Ages after that mess.
I eventually attacked him this time with Swords and a couple Xbows along with the Horses.
It took some time but I got in a couple Impis.
I was able to get the first Expo and eventually his whole Empire but late at around turn 115 or so.
DoFed Japan but forgot to send Delegates to the Northern Neighbor and he hated me ever since.
Found some other Civs and was able to work on expansion.
I ended up being able to settle a bunch of land where Hungary could of settled.
Even at turn 170 I haven't settled all of it just yet.
He had so much room so attacking me was odd.
Spoiler Turn 98 Zulu :
Spoiler Turn 123 Zulu :
Spoiler Turn 172 Zulu :
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2011
- Messages
- 2,349
This map's highly luck dependent based on AI scouting patterns. Rome found me early (turn 12-15 or so) so it was slinger spam time.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2011
- Messages
- 11,902
As you are titling your post the first 25 turns these 2 hints should help. One of the reasons I moved here was these bananas
And at T25.. quite different to you. I will settle the tobacco next turn. Good chopping ground and should annoy the romans. I managed to get Ondini before the good tile was taken probably because I bought the bananas and a goody hut gave +1 pop. Even if I had missed it there was 1 next door and more importantly some stone.
And at T25.. quite different to you. I will settle the tobacco next turn. Good chopping ground and should annoy the romans. I managed to get Ondini before the good tile was taken probably because I bought the bananas and a goody hut gave +1 pop. Even if I had missed it there was 1 next door and more importantly some stone.
Last edited:
Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
@Victoria
Thanks for the break down and information.
I think your play is by far more advanced.
You actually have specific reasons for settling a place and buying certain tiles.
You actually want the Romans to DoW you on this map so that is something I have to work on in my games.
Very clever play that you show here.
I never thought of taking a settler all the way down there to get the Science Tiles.
It seems you have to really be prepared and know what you are doing so Rome doesn't attack it.
I have had Rome roll me early a few times so I kinda Fear them.
I see how that fast Science and Faith can get things rolling though.
The main focus is the first 25 turns or Early game because it seems those turns are crucial to get things rolling for a speedy victory.
I just share the other turns cause I play most game all the way out.
@MarigoldRan
Interesting point that variance comes into play when games are compared.
Thanks for the break down and information.
I think your play is by far more advanced.
You actually have specific reasons for settling a place and buying certain tiles.
You actually want the Romans to DoW you on this map so that is something I have to work on in my games.
Very clever play that you show here.
I never thought of taking a settler all the way down there to get the Science Tiles.
It seems you have to really be prepared and know what you are doing so Rome doesn't attack it.
I have had Rome roll me early a few times so I kinda Fear them.
I see how that fast Science and Faith can get things rolling though.
The main focus is the first 25 turns or Early game because it seems those turns are crucial to get things rolling for a speedy victory.
I just share the other turns cause I play most game all the way out.
@MarigoldRan
Interesting point that variance comes into play when games are compared.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2011
- Messages
- 11,902
The danger comes in Hojo and Trajan both DOW'ing... so not always so clever.
My warrior seems to have scouted differently to yours. For some reason you went east, perhaps to check for good campus adjacency while mine went onto the hill first for good visibility, went left and bam straight into a camp, met hojo, went down and met Trajan. I got a barb scout from the east so knew I was at least safe from a civ attack on that side until I could check it out. The CS wonder settle was a gamble and certainly seemed to highly annoy Trajan, I had pretty much cut off all his settling ground I suspect. Taking the settling ground pretty much guarantees a punch up and as you have found out in your game, if you do not settle the ground, they will.
In this game it seems better to have an army come to you on your terms so yeah I like to troll them a bit and after all you get the grievance against them as well as the inspiration. I am a gambler and things do not always work out as well as expected but I like the variety.
The buying a tile thing is simple and worth considering, especially a 3/2 tile or a 2/3 tile. Which tile to do first is a tiny thing.
Last edited:
MarigoldRan
WARLORD
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2011
- Messages
- 2,349
Getting that tile in the South was smart.
Here's a save with less early game variance. Standard settings.
I've forgotten how to show images again. Attachment has T25 save. Don't click for spoiler.
I'm wondering what the most efficient path is to victory with low variance starts like this. Will post my T50 save, too (and every 25 turns thereafter). Would like to compare.
Here's a save with less early game variance. Standard settings.
I've forgotten how to show images again. Attachment has T25 save. Don't click for spoiler.
I'm wondering what the most efficient path is to victory with low variance starts like this. Will post my T50 save, too (and every 25 turns thereafter). Would like to compare.
Spoiler :
Attachments
Last edited by a moderator:
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
does anyone know the exact mechanism that makes the AI on deity likely to DOW you? I remember from Civ V that the algorhithm heavily considered unit strength, which resulted in ridiculous things like crossbows giving lower scores than spearmen and so forth. if it still works similiarly to this, I'm pretty sure the unit strength tab still works this way, then one way to make the AI not even consider DOWing you is getting high unit strength early (ironically by building weaker units, warriors). I've also seen some Deity players make the argument that warriors are better at capturing cities very early on than a balanced combo of melee and range, and it's true. Slingers, even Archers, do very little damage to cities. I'd say the balanced army overtakes the pure warrior army when you get all your slingers upgraded.
Having one, or even two additional warriors out early game and denying all embassies will probably make it extremely unlikely that any AI will DOW you early, if my assumptions about the algorhithm still hold true. Might be worth considering in the following scenarios:
1) There is a neighbor close by with flatland cities you want to take. Might be superior to an archer rush, probably around 4 units are needed.
2) There is an aggressive AI near you. In that case you could warrior rush to stop them from DOWing too early and then transition into archers, which are much better for unit vs unit combat.
3) There are many AIs in the game with an open or hidden agenda that favors strong military
Having one, or even two additional warriors out early game and denying all embassies will probably make it extremely unlikely that any AI will DOW you early, if my assumptions about the algorhithm still hold true. Might be worth considering in the following scenarios:
1) There is a neighbor close by with flatland cities you want to take. Might be superior to an archer rush, probably around 4 units are needed.
2) There is an aggressive AI near you. In that case you could warrior rush to stop them from DOWing too early and then transition into archers, which are much better for unit vs unit combat.
3) There are many AIs in the game with an open or hidden agenda that favors strong military
i_imperator
Imperator
Its on emperor, but I've got a very nice start here with japan, potential for crazy TOA play. Splintered fractal, Standard, map with new age and wet rainfall. Im looking to try a diplo victory with them but we will see what the map presents us with
Spoiler :
Last edited:
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Its on emperor, but I've got a very nice start here with japan, potential for crazy TOA play. Splintered fractal, Standard, map with new age and wet rainfall. Im looking to try a diplo victory with them but we will see what the map presents us with
Spoiler :
I put all my maps on old age / dry rainfall and get way, way more hills, mountains and forests/jungle than this
