The GodMOD

[Fintilgin]

The GodMOD
​

So. I’ve been thinking about how to improve on religion in Civ4. My first big thought is that we really need to increase the number of religions available, not in total number then in potential. First off I find it annoying and jarring to have my French civilization discover Hinduism, or my Aztecs Judaism. It gives religion a generic, totally acultural feeling. Furthermore, it’s not much fun to know that if you shoot for an early religion you’re always going to be one of a couple religions. How many times do you really want to be Hindu, anyway?

Secondarily, while many applaud Firaxis for making religion very vague and inoffensive, and I understand why they did it that way, I’d like to see it a little more realistic. Freedom of religion gives you a bonus for having lots of religions, but I’d like to see a penalty for having foreign religions, especially in the early game when state religions are big. I want to be able to persecute heretics and drive religions out of my country. Furthermore, it would be fun to have some for of trait system.

Therefore, I’d like to make two different mods. GodMOD Lite, which makes no rules changes, and just increases the number of religious labels/names, and GodMOD Full which introduces some new concepts. I plan on plugging away at this myself, but I don’t really know much scripting yet so it may take some time. If anyone else likes the idea I’d be happy to have some help!

I envision GodMOD Lite as working thusly: The civilizations are split into cultural groups. Say, Asian, European, MidEast/Africa, and American. Each group gets a different religion when they discover the same techs. So if Asian civ discovers Polytheism, they get Hinduism, if a European civ discovers it they might get Norse religion or Hellenistic (Zeus and pals). You’d still only get seven religions in any one game, but they’d be different religions each game. You’d also lose the religions being quite so tied to when they appeared historically but that barely works as is.

The big challenge for GodMOD Lite is probably tweaking the UI in the religion and city screen. Before any religion is discovered each icon should probably just be a big question mark and then be replace by the appropriate icon when founded.

I don’t envision much graphics needs beyond icons for the religions. The 3D temples and such can stay exactly the same, and even the temple icons can just be tweaked a bit with the new religious symbol. Similarly, to make things easier the missionary graphics can remain pretty much the same, maybe tweaking a skin or two to give different color robes or something.

Here’s a very, VERY rough list of religions and the techs they’re tied to that I drew up.

Religions:

Asian
1.) Hinduism (Polythe)
2.) Buddhism (Med)
3.) Shiite Islam (Mono)
4.) Shinto (Theology)
5.) Taoist (Code Laws)
6.) Confucisism (Philo)
7.) ??? (Divine Right)

European:
1.) Norse (Polytheisic)
2.) Druidic (Medi)
3.) Catholic (Mono)
4.) Orthodox (Theology)
5.) Protestantism (Code Laws)
6.) ??? (Philo)
7.) Mormon (Divine Right)

Euro Unique: Greeks and Romans get Hellenistic instead of Norse.

American:
1.) Totemic (Poly)
2.) Shamanistic (Med)
3.) Great Father (Mono)
4.) Spirit Dance (Theology)
5.) Olmec (Code Laws)
6.) ??? (Philo)
7.) Mormon (Divine Right)

Mid-East
1.) Osirian/Egyptian (Poly)
2.) Zorarostarism (Med)
3.) Jewish (Mono)
4.) Sunni Islam (Theo)
5.) Shiite Islam (Code Laws)
6.) Coptic Christianity (Philo)
7.) ??? (Divine Right)

Asian: China, India, Japan, Mongolia
Europe: England, France, Germany, Greece, Rome, Russia, Spain
America: America, Aztecs, Inca
Mid East: Arabs, Egypt, Mali, Persia


As for GodMod Full, I think it would be a good idea to get the Lite version up and working first, but I envision a couple things. First off, if you have a state religion then any foreign religion in a city then that causes one unhappy face. So clearly if you want to take the route of tolerance, you could build that religion a temple giving you a net zero effect from that religion. Or you could send a cheaper missionary to persecute the religion and remove it from the city. Probably you could only persecute in your own territory, not other peoples.

If we did this we want to reduce the cost of missionaries slightly, and probably increase the total number you can have slightly as they would be getting more internal uses. Alternately we could make a fairly cheap Inquisitor unit that can’t convert and can only persecute.

The second thought I had would be to allow a trait system. Obviously there are way too many religions to make traits for each, so I figured we could have a trait pool of ~10 traits, and when you discovered a religion you got to pick a trait. So in one game Catholics might be Evangelical, and in another they might be Fanatic or have strict Dietary Laws. Some traits might not unlock until certain techs, so if you want to be Evangelical or Fanatic you might not want to jump for one of the first religions available as they have a smaller total trait pool. Here are some possible traits I dreamt up.

Artistic: Temples provide double culture points.

Dietary Laws: Temples provide a +1 bonus to health

Evangelical: Free missionary on founding religion and half cost missionaries. Available with Theocracy.

Fanatic: Half cost Inquisitors. Cathedrals provide one free XP point for all units built in their city.

Inspired: Free Great Prophet and two free missionaries. Probably available last, with Divine Right.

Monastic: Temples provide a +10% to research.

Tolerant: Non-state religions do not cause unhappiness.

 

[Lachlan]

Idea not bad you see ?

Want download it !

 

[Wyz_sub10]

I'd really like to see Secular Humanism in there.

 

[Rayanth]

where's Scientology? you left out Scientology... I hate you!

 

[mitsho]

Interesting idea, and a political correct one too. Congratulation! My plusses and minusses:

- You look like you have problems to fill up the religions for the seven techs, so wouldn't it even be a little more political correct to make the religions not dependent of the culture group? That way, you could have a pool of 3-4 religions for each tech that spanks the wonders. Or even more political correct (might be too much by now... , we have a pool of ~20-30 religions for all the techs, meaning that you can spawn every religion with every tech.

- I absolutely love the trait system. They seem also quite balanced in your chart. But how exactly does one get traits? As there are only 7 or so (which is a good number, not too much and not too less!), 2 for each religion are probably enough (at very maximum 3). One when the religion develops and another one after x turns? or when the shrine gets built? when x cities belong to the religion? ...

- The inquisitor is basically a counter-missionary, correct? It can clear a religion out of a city, but only in those cities that belong to you and your permament (!) allies? Neat balanced effect, and probably wouldn't make fanatic too powerful too!

- Who does get the effects of the traits of the religion? The founder civ of the religion? All the cities that have that religion as predominant? (Is this possible since there can be more than one religion in each city?)

- AI-programming, this system is probably useless if we can't get the AI to understand it, right?

mistho

 

[Fintilgin]

ATHEISM IN THE GODMOD
​

Okay, so I’m an atheist. Yay, we rock! I’ve been thinking long and hard about how we ought to be represented in the GodMod. I really, really don’t want to do it as a religion. Having a Holy City, prophets, and missionaries of atheism seems preaty dumb.

But then I remembered to old quote ‘Atheism is a religion the way baldness is a hair color’ and good solution struck me. Scientific Method will make available a new techonolgy called ‘Theory of Evolution’. This tech will be a prerequesite for biology. But it will also open up a sixth religion civic, called ‘Atheism’.

Switching to Atheism will do a few things. First off it will stop any religion from spreading in your territory, much like Theocracy does. Second, it will switch you to ‘No State Religion’. Third it will make available a unit to build called ‘Science Teacher’ which uses the model for the scientific great person.

A science teacher can be expended to remove a single religion from any of YOUR cities. If a city has NO religions in it, and you are running ‘Atheism’ then you get a automatic bonus to your research rate in that city, say 25% or 30%. BUT you lose all non-wonder religious buildings like temples and cathedrels. So you get a research boost, but at the cost of loosing the cultural and bonus happiness (Opiate of the masses, LOL).

This gives two interesting extreme routes on the religion scale. You can collect a bunch of religions (maybe with the tolerant trait) and then switch to Freedom of Religion in the end game. This will give you larger, more cultured cities. Or, you can go flat out research and try to dump your religions to reach Alpha Centauri faster. Of course, your people won’t be as cheerful or easily controlled without the false hope of an afterlife, but that’s the price you pay, eh?

Running Atheism should also make anyone running Organized Religion dislike you and anyone running Theocracy despise you.

 

[Fintilgin]

- You look like you have problems to fill up the religions for the seven techs, so wouldn't it even be a little more political correct to make the religions not dependent of the culture group? That way, you could have a pool of 3-4 religions for each tech that spanks the wonders. Or even more political correct (might be too much by now... , we have a pool of ~20-30 religions for all the techs, meaning that you can spawn every religion with every tech.

Well half the point was to make the religions dependent on cultural groups. I've only got maybe one missing in each slot (because I removed Atheisim in a earlier draft) so I don't think those would be too hard to fill in.

- I absolutely love the trait system. They seem also quite balanced in your chart. But how exactly does one get traits? As there are only 7 or so (which is a good number, not too much and not too less!), 2 for each religion are probably enough (at very maximum 3). One when the religion develops and another one after x turns? or when the shrine gets built? when x cities belong to the religion? ...

My idea was that when you discover the religion you immedately get to pick a trait. I also thought it might be good to have a couple more traits then religions so that there are some that don't come into play each game. My first thought was to have two traits per religion, or else have a positive trait and a negative trait, but I think it might be simplest just to stick to one trait per religion chosen when the religion is founded.

- The inquisitor is basically a counter-missionary, correct? It can clear a religion out of a city, but only in those cities that belong to you and your permament (!) allies? Neat balanced effect, and probably wouldn't make fanatic too powerful too!

Right the inquistior is a counter-missionary. I expect that Tolerant religions couldn't build them, but otherwise every can.

- Who does get the effects of the traits of the religion? The founder civ of the religion? All the cities that have that religion as predominant? (Is this possible since there can be more than one religion in each city?)

You get the trait bonus if you're running that religion as your state religion. You don't have to be the founder.

- AI-programming, this system is probably useless if we can't get the AI to understand it, right?

As far as inquisitors go, maybe. I don't know if we could get them working for the AI without the SDK or not. But the AI modding tools are coming eventually, and it'll take some time to even get GodMOD Lite up and running, so I'm not going to stress out about the AI too much yet.

 

[mitsho]

Well, atheism isn't historical, that's why it isn't in the game. There has never been an atheistic society. And even modern 'Europe' is humanistic, not atheistic mostly. But, well, ok, it may be a nice concept for the game. However, Spawning it with Theory of Evolution is just wrong, since that is only one aspect! I'd rather have it with liberalism, scientific method and democracy, or better, with communism (does make sense, not, he?) alone.
Then, creating a science teacher unit is just plain nonsense, sorry.. Since he is only a 'super-inquisitor', which is rather good, he can stay that. The scientific bonus is ok, again, has to be balanced.
What is not clear to me is how this 'religion' gets distributed all over the Earth, it can't be the classical way (missionaries --> inquisitors/science teachers...), since that would be too powerful. so tell me how? Or else, only one civilization could have it.

mitsho

 

[mitsho]

***** bad day, second double post, sorry..

to your answers, Yes, I know that you could fill the missing religions in. But as it is at the moment, you are already stretching the thing a bit (you have shiite islam twice, druidic religion? And what is olmec? ... - but you've forgot sikhism for example).
I'd better have one giant pool for the religions, it is more acceptable too (atheism being the exception because it needs to have the other religions developed already). But that's just my personal preference.

State religion sounds ok solution, and one trait for each religion also on second thought. This also gives a bonus to the founder since he can pick the trait (or do they get assigned randomly?). I'd like not to have negative traits too.
what happens later in the game, where we don't have state religion anymore (this point of the game comes, right? I'm not sure since I do not have the game yet... ).

Again, we have to be careful that the inquisitors don't get too strong...

mitsho

 

[Fintilgin]

Well, atheism isn't historical, that's why it isn't in the game. There has never been an atheistic society. And even modern 'Europe' is humanistic, not atheistic mostly. But, well, ok, it may be a nice concept for the game.

Well no there hasn't. But then the Aztecs were Hindu and never landed on the moon, either. It's an interesting 'alt history' choice.

The scientific bonus is ok, again, has to be balanced.
What is not clear to me is how this 'religion' gets distributed all over the Earth, it can't be the classical way (missionaries --> inquisitors/science teachers...), since that would be too powerful. so tell me how? Or else, only one civilization could have it.

Well it dosn't really get distrubted over the earth. It dosn't spread, because it isn't a religion. You 'unspread' religion in your territory only and get the bonuses.

Anyway, I'm not wedded to the idea. I'm just throwing out thoughts. My MAIN goal is making GodMOD Lite, everything else as far as rule changes, traits, and other stuff is just bonus.

 

[mitsho]

I know, that's why I said it'd be a nice idea. And I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm only answering your idea after my opinion.

And to your second quote, That's exactly what I meant, could in that case anyone 'found' this 'anti-religion'? Or else, only one civ would have it..

mitsho

 

[Seanirl]

Sure Atheism is a religion, in the literal sense. It just isn't an organised religion with hierarchy etc.

 

[tdpatriots12]

Maybe there hasn;t been a truly atheist society, however Communism is supposed to be Godless, eliminating religion as well as the family unit as a central focus of life. The focus is all on the community. Atheism could give bonuses to state ownership etc and other "communist" traits.

However, I'm not sure Atheism should PREVENT the spread of other religions, I don't know too many atheists (including myself) that go around telling people what they can't believe. But it should make the Civ more "skeptical" and remove the bonuses normally given to the founding Civs of any religions you have (like money and being able to see in your territory). However, atheists, being skeptics, would be more inclined to accept logical defeat, so cultural city defense should go down.

Basically w/ Atheism:
(Discovered with Communism)

Bonuses:
-Significant Bonus to research
-Boost to efficiency or some other factor when combined with Communist Civics

Penalties:
-Theocracies and Organized Religion Civics* nations hate you, Pacifists* and Pagans mildly dislike you
-The cultural and happiness bonuses of any existing or future religious buildings are halved
-Cultural defense bonus for cities is also halved
*As long as their state religion is NOT atheism as well

Notes:
-Free Religion Civics Civs don't mind you at all
-Only Theocracy combined with Atheism prevents spread of religion, it can be reasoned that a Civ using Theocracy with Atheism has a hierarchy of bureaucrats responsible for spreading nonbelief. Ditto Organized Religion (Organized Atheism).
-Important: Atheism is spread to other countries by the science output of cities, once the scientific output of a city reaches a certain level that city gains an atheism icon.

 

[Fintilgin]

My big concern right now is getting the basics up and running. The exact implementation of atheism (if any) can wait.

Who knows about XML? I'm playing with it but I'm preaty ignorant. I set, as a test, both Judaism and Christianity to trigger on the discovery of Archery. Now I'm trying to find a way to make it so that if I'm say, England, France, or Germany I found Christianity and if I'm Arabia, Persia, or Egypt I found Judaism.

The best way would be able to define a string CivCulture (Euro, Asian, etc.) in Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml and then allow it to be used as prereq in Civ4ReligionInfo.xml like TechPrereq. I don't know if that's possible though. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this to work?

 

[Mason11987]

But then I remembered to old quote ‘Atheism is a religion the way baldness is a hair color’ and good solution struck me. Scientific Method will make available a new techonolgy called ‘Theory of Evolution’. This tech will be a prerequesite for biology. But it will also open up a sixth religion civic, called ‘Atheism’.

Just so you know Evolution doesn't disprove theism or prove atheism so having that as a pre-req isn't really correct.

 

[tdpatriots12]

Just so you know Evolution doesn't disprove theism or prove atheism so having that as a pre-req isn't really correct.

Hence why I suggested Communism, which makes a LOT more sense

 

[Fintilgin]

Just so you know Evolution doesn't disprove theism or prove atheism so having that as a pre-req isn't really correct.

Right, right. I suggested it because it helped make atheisim more intellectually respectable and plausilbe, but communisim might be good too.

Like I said it dosen't really matter at this point. Right now I'm focused on getting a flexible version of the Lite mod (which has no atheism in any form) up and running. This stuff can be figure out later.

 

[Matches10]

I am really digging this idea. First a couple things to what everyone's said.

First, to Mitsho and others, If I'm reading this right I think you're misunderstanding (as I did when I first read the idea) the inclusion of "atheism". This model does not introduce Atheism as a new religion in the game, but is a 6th Religion civic, which is an important distinction.

Thus, atheism does not "spread" because it's not new religion choice. It's simply a 6th civic option for religion that (in my opinion) would be revealed by the discovery of Communism. It allows you to build the Counter-Missionary (I too don't like the "science teacher" name...Not sure what to use though.) that would remove religions from various cities. The idea behind this civic is that it is essentially the same as "Free Religion" (citizens are allowed to worship if they would like) but that the government is actively and/or passively attempting to sway the citizenry from strong religious beliefs. (if there is a problem with adding a civic, I hope we could just replace paganism. Since the effects of it (if you don't do anything at all) are exactly the same as paganism (i.e., no effects)

I think a 20% science boost in cities with no religions left in it is fine. Given that EVERY city gets a 10% boost under Free Religion, I think if a Civ running Atheism that goes through the trouble of converting the citizens away from religion (and the ensuing happiness decrease from lost temples, etc), should get a significant bonus.

I would consider removing the "no spread of religion" condition to keep the idea of it still being a relatively "free" civic. If possible I would flag cities in a civ with the Atheism civic as being less susceptible to the spread or missionary attempts rather than having it halted altogether. Another wrinkle would be to give the Counter-Missionary two abilities, one "eradicate religion" and one "convert to atheism". The "convert" option would do regular anti-missionary work, removing a religion, but with perhaps a lesser chance of success than that of a missionary that spreads religion. (Easier to spread a faith than to stop i once it's there). The "quash religion" would be a forcible removal of the religion from the city, resulting in immediate success but severe happiness penalties that would last for a few turns. The effect of the unhappiness could be decreased if the civ is also running the "police state" civic.

I also like the traits idea. However if the civ that founds the religion gets to pick the trait, then do all other civs to whom that religion spreads inherit that religion. So if you found Buddhism and give it the fanatic trait, does every civ then inherit the fanatic trait if they adopt that religion? Or does the benefit only go to the civ that founds the religion? OR does a civ get to pick the trait if/when they decide to adopt that religion as their state religion. So you could have Fanatic Judaism in one civ, whereas the other might adopt Judaism but have it be Artistic Judaism? This last idea appeals to me a lot, because then it essnentially multiplies the types of religions over 7-fold. Not only would you be allowed to change religions but change the trait of the religion as well.


As for your "GodMod Lite" idea, I like this as well, with a couple exceptions. The American civs should adopt the European religion categories beginning with Catholicism (Monotheism). As little sense as the Taoist French makes now, it makes just as little to have "Great Father" Americans here. The other beef I have is that it also doesn't make sense to have Catholicism being founded with Monotheism (since Catholicism before Taoism doesn't make much sense) and that is what is nce about the current system. The later religions are often founded around the same time as their actual counterparts which I would like to preserve. Perhaps revise to:

Asian
1.) Hinduism (Polythe)
2.) Buddhism (Med)
3.) ??? (Mono)
4.) Confucisism (Code Laws)
5.) Shinto (Theology)
6.) Taoist (Philo)
7.) Sikhism (Divine Right)

European:
1.) Norse (Polytheisic)
2.) Druidic (Medi)
3.) Jewish (Mono)
4.) ??? (Code of Laws)
5.) Catholic (Theology)
6.) Orthodox (Philosophy)
7.) Protestant (Divine Right)

Euro Unique: Greeks and Romans get Hellenistic instead of Norse.

American:
1.) Totemic (Poly)
2.) Shamanistic (Med)
3.) Great Father (Mono)
5.) Olmec (Code Laws)
6.) Spirit Dance (Theology)
6.) ??? (Philo)
7.) Bahá'í (Divine Right)

Mid-East
1.) Osirian/Egyptian (Poly)
2.) Zorarostarism (Med)
3.) Jewish (Mono)
4.) ??? (Code Laws)
5.) Coptic Christianity (Theo)
6.) Sunni Islam (Philo)
7.) Shiite Islam (Divine Right)

Granted I am no religion expert but I think this might help the way the religions develop in the game be a little more accurate timeline-wise. And the Bahai'i is by no means a native American religion, but it's a big one and unfortunately so little is known about their religions that it's hard to ascribe religions to those groups. Anyway at the very least you must make sure that if two regions are going to have access to founding a religion, the tech required to found the religion must be the same for both. You have Shiite Islam in Asia founded by Monotheism and in Mid-East with Code of Laws. This is bad because if an Asian civ gets monotheism first, they found Shiite Islam. Then what happens if a Mid-Easy civ is first to get Code of Laws. The name of a religion must be founded by the same advance regardless of region.

But good ideas here. Looking forward to see what comes of it.

 

[Fintilgin]

I also like the traits idea. However if the civ that founds the religion gets to pick the trait, then do all other civs to whom that religion spreads inherit that religion. So if you found Buddhism and give it the fanatic trait, does every civ then inherit the fanatic trait if they adopt that religion?

I figured that religion was set with that trait. And everyone got it. So if China founded Fanatic Buddhism and you adopted Buddhism as, say, Japan you'd get the Fanatic trait too. This lets you list the trait in the religion screen, keeps the religion number down, and reflects the philophical direction and influence that the religions founder has. I think it would be too messy and complicated to let each civilization pick their own trait if they convert, and it also removes some strategy. If you have your heart set on a particular trait then you either have to found a religion and pick it or convert to the religion (if any) that got it. You really, really want an Artistic religion? Go ahead and convert to Protestantisim, but you might piss off your Hellenstic neighbors...

 

[Fintilgin]

Revised listing of religions:


Religions listed by Culture Groups:

ASIAN
1.) Shinto (Polytheism)
2.) Theravada Buddhism (Meditation)
3.) Emperor Worship (Monotheism)
4.) Taoist (Theology)
5.) Confucianism (Code of Laws)
6.) Mahayana Buddhism (Philosophy)
7.) Sikhism (Divine Right)

ASIAN_INDIA
1.) Hinduism (Polytheism)
2.) Theravada Buddhism (Meditation)
3.) Emperor Worship (Monotheism)
4.) Taoist (Theology)
5.) Confucianism (Code of Laws)
6.) Mahayana Buddhism (Philosophy)
7.) Sikhism (Divine Right)

EUROPE
1.) Norse (Polytheisism)
2.) Druidic (Meditation)
3.) Catholic (Monotheisim)
4.) Orthodox (Theology)
5.) Protestantism (Code Laws)
6.) Puritan (Philosophy)
7.) Mormon (Divine Right)

EUROPE_ROME
1.) Greek Polytheism (Polytheisism)
2.) Sol Invictus (Meditation)
3.) Catholic (Monotheisim)
4.) Orthodox (Theology)
5.) Protestantism (Code Laws)
6.) Deism (Philosophy)
7.) Mormon (Divine Right)

EUROPE_GREEK
1.) Greek Polytheism (Polytheisism)
2.) Druidic (Meditation)
3.) Catholic (Monotheisim)
4.) Orthodox (Theology)
5.) Protestantism (Code Laws)
6.) Deism (Philosophy)
7.) Mormon (Divine Right)

AMERIND
1.) Totemic (Polytheism)
2.) Shamanistic (Meditation)
3.) Great Father (Monotheism)
4.) Spirit Dance (Theology)
5.) Olmec (Code of Laws)
6.) Deism (Philosophy)
7.) Mormon (Divine Right)

MIDEAST
1.) Ba’al Worship (Polytheism)
2.) Zoroastrianism (Meditation)
3.) Jewish (Monotheism)
4.) Sunni Islam (Theology)
5.) Shiite Islam (Code Laws)
6.) Sufism (Philosophy)
7.) Coptic Christianity (Divine Right)

MIDEAST_EGYPT
1.) Egyptian Polytheism (Polytheism)
2.) Cult of Aten (Meditation)
3.) Jewish (Monotheism)
4.) Sunni Islam (Theology)
5.) Shiite Islam (Code Laws)
6.) Sufism (Philosophy)
7.) Coptic Christianity (Divine Right)

Religions listed by Technologies

POLYTHEISM
Shinto
Hinduism
Norse
Greek Polytheism
Totemic
Ba’al Worship
Egyptian Polytheism

MEDITATION
Theravada Buddhism
Druidic
Sol Invictus
Shamanistic
Zoroastrianism
Cult of Aten

MONOTHEISM
Emperor Worship
Catholic
Great Father
Jewish

THEOLOGY
Taoist
Orthodox
Spirit Dance
Sunni Islam

CODE OF LAWS
Confucianism
Protestantism
Olmec
Shiite Islam

PHILOSOPHY
Mahayana Buddhism
Deism
Puritan
Sufism

DIVINE RIGHT
Sikhism
Mormon
Coptic Christianity

This listing has 32 unique religions.