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The Great Wall of Suleiman: A Warmonger's Guide to Espionage

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Melted Canary, May 5, 2008.

  1. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    The more hammers spent on the curremt project/building/unit you want to sabotage, the more expensive it gets. If you are in a tight space race always put some spies in your cities (1 per city).

    3.17 made revolts more expensive, I don't know if the other mission still cost the same.
     
  2. Mad2rix

    Mad2rix Warlord

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    That's why he's called Suleiman the Magnificient.
     
  3. kivanc

    kivanc King

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    sabotage production of a space ship part? well an AI can even destroy a finished part of a spaceship.

    i didn't notice how it happened, but a big (finished) part of my spaceship (one of the parts with more hammers) was destroyed by enemy infiltrators in Liverpool. That part was not even build in Liverpool.
    I built it in London again in 6/7 turns (in marathon!) :)

    Thanks to my high prod rate. 320 hammers+laboratory+that wonder (i don't recall the name)
    i can sometimes achieve a total of 400/500 hammers in some cities. base hammers easily exceed 100.


    yes, he should have spent a huge EP for this. but still it's better than having a wodner production destroyed. when you loose all production to a wonder, you may miss that wonder but spaceship parts can be replaced.


    some small notes from Ottoman History

    Europe recognize him as Suleiman the Magnificent. His real nickname is "Kanuni". Kanuni is an adjective word derived from the Kanun meaning "Law".
    Kanuni Sultan Suleyman.
    Suleyman is the same Abrahamic/Arabic name known as Solomon.
    He failed to capture Vienna because of some backstabbing Allies during siege. Except that event, all the years under his rule was full of successes.

    And the nickname for Mehmed II is Fatih meaning "conqueror"
    You know Fatih Sultan Mehmet is the one who conquered Istanbul (Byzantine capital) and Trabzon (Pontus Greek Kingdom capital)
    Pontus means east black sea shore in Anatolia.


    One memo here:
    Fatih was a wise leader. He became sultan at very young age. 13 or sth, because his father got sick.

    The west tried to take opportunity of the lack of rule of this case and prepared for an attack. He asked his father (previous sultan) to lead the army.
    His father denied. He then replied,
    "if you are the sultan, lead your army
    if i am the sultan then i'm commanding you to lead the army."

    so the battle was won that way. he became a powerful leader after he grew up.
     
  4. Hereditary Rule

    Hereditary Rule Warlord

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    Good Article - I like Sully just fine, but as I was reading I started to think that Gandhi might be the best leader for this strategy.

    If you're depended on the great wall, (and want to run Philo), Ghandi seems like the best choice. He starts with Myst and Mining, meaning he researches Masonry at -20% off for a very early start on the great wall. His fast workers can enter forests and begin chopping immediately.

    I like IMP quite a lot actually but sacrificing the faster settlers for quicker teching to masonry and quicker chopping may be worth it if the entire strategy is GW dependent.
     
  5. kivanc

    kivanc King

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    well. starting with mysticism is not required for great wall although it still is an advantage.

    first let me tell you that i'm not a EE player. but i'm following this thread as i like it. i build great wall everytime. i play on monarch or emperor and marathon speed.

    my starting capital build queue is generally constant.

    1) worker/settler
    2) settler/worker
    3)stonehenge
    4)great wall
    these 4 are always the same. if i can find resources stone/marble, i continue building wonders in the capital.

    what i'm trying to say that, although when i don't start with mysticism, and even when i play in a large/huge world (9/11 civs), and although i start building great wall after settler, worker and stonehenge, i'm able to build great wall everytime.

    it's quite possible. great wall is a very cheap wonder. chopping a few forests will help very much.
    i build stonehenge generally before great wall so as to have a stronger possibility to have great prophets instead of great spies.
     
  6. TheDS

    TheDS Regular Riot

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    Summeria.

    Wouldn't an EARLY, CHEAP Courthouse be what you really want? It's unfortunate that Gilligan isn't Organized to make it even cheaper, and Summeria doesn't start with Mysticism to make it available even sooner, but you could use a different leader with better Traits.

    Great Wall is still a major boon, but less critical. Make sure you've got Stone for best effect.

    I can't say much for the Vulture besides its usefulness as a rusher, perhaps making your early REXing and Spy network at odds with opportunistic conquest, but Gilligan being Protective gets you cheaper Castles, and Creative saves you hassle with borders.

    Anyway, for one of my next games, I was going to try Summeria, and trying to go heavy Esp seemed the right thing to do with them.
     
  7. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Gilgamesh of sumeria seems like the strongest esp guy to me too. I don't really think suleiman can beat those synergies.

    Ziggurat helps speeding along the GSpy you need to get some tech after ultra-effective rushing with vultures. Pro means you can get some gold from wall-whipping and you should be safe for the midgame (xbows and lbows).
     
  8. kivanc

    kivanc King

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    yeah, right. Gilgamesh seem a good choice for this. good synergy.
    besides, a very militaristic and REXer guy. if you meet Gilgamesh, it should be 1 of your earliest victims. if you cannot early-rush him or block territory towards him, he is a trouble.
    however, I didn't see Sumeria spending heavy tax on EP, even after when I was his only neighbour. I stole many techs from them, with low esp points.

    i'm not a heavy EE guy but i use esp some. for a long time, i underestimated great spies but i like it now.settling 2 and 1 for SY makes 48 raw esp points. a philo leader woudl achieve 3 really early so Suleiman will also be good.


    but i think Charlemagne screams much more for military & espionage. very good synergy.

    1) City Defense and Culture: he starts with mysticism so he can snag a religion (Polytheism better), that would also help him for culture. so he can also skip monuments/stonehenge. religion would also help him for city defenses, along with his prot trait, he is safe. especially when settled on hills, attacker has no chance.

    2) Imperialistic, Marble & Stone: If he snags these resources, they will help him for below mentioned wonders and city walls, castles etc. IMP has an advantage for settling near these resources early.

    3) Imperialistic & The Great Wall: If he snags TGW, he would start having GGs very early. For this, he should research masonry early, so this would also encourage him for building city walls as well

    4) Oracle & Code of Laws: Just like Gilgamesh, he should beeline Priesthood and oracle would help him building rathaus nearly as early as a ziggurat. That would probably give him Confucianism as well, so 1 more religion, more culture, larger happy cap with temples (as he had Priesthood early)

    5) REXing: After CoL & Rathaus is in hands, he can fasten REXing much more. IMP trait will help on this period again.

    6) Tech trading & Backfilling: According to map & other side strategies, you might have researched some of worker techs as well. And starting with hunting also encourages for earlier archery (good for prot leaders). But other most techs you have left over. Now in this period, most of the AIs should have beelined different lines and you will be having many different techs for them. By tech trading, you can backfill.
    Try to trade tech with all AIs in the same turn, so they shall not trade the tech they took from you to have another tech that you can take from a 3rd person. :crazyeye: really, tech trading with all AIs in same turn is better.
    You don't even need to have any alphabet for this, because most AI should already have it.

    7) Engineering: To unlock his glorious UU, you should beeline eng. Especially if you succeed to research engineering before most AIs have machinery and feudalism , then you can raze many cities. up to this period, 1/2 of the AIs should have attacked you already and you should have 1/2 GGs settled and you will most probably spam landsknecht with good XPs.

    8) Castle & Prot trait: What a coinsidence that his UU requires the tech that also unlocks the castles. And prot help for cheap walls & castles. You will have castles earleir than most/all AIs.

    Shortly, because of his UU/UB and traits, he screams for beelining CoL and engineering which unlocks early espionage buildings. So he encourages espionage. After engineering is in hands, it is the real time for HRE. high EP, good UU, low maintenance and a large territory...
     
  9. ScantilyCladLad

    ScantilyCladLad Chieftain

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    OK i LOVE this strat im new to civ 4 and use it every time.

    i just have questions surrounding my tech order, usually i get the starting stuff i need and then the first major i go for aside from iron working is aesthetics which i use to trade for alphabet and other junk. then i go code of laws and am a little stuck what to go for next... engineering i guess? i like to get gunpowder early so i can utilise janniseries but i usually get beaten to communism and the kremlin. can u please give me the exact order you usually go for and how many cities u typically need? i usually get like 6-8 then wait till jannieseirs and pwnz0r somone

    ty
     
  10. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Deity

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    philosophy trait for cottage economy ??
     
  11. kivanc

    kivanc King

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    like EEE_BOY said, this strategy is for sure not suitable for Suleiman. I disagree with the writer totally, that's why i have insribed to this trait.

    Suleiman is such a powerful leader that I really cannot undestand such wasting of his strength.

    I tried to tell that this espionage thru cottage strategy is meaningless with a philo leader. only to have a few great spies early, such a good (phi) trait cannot be wasted.

    i would gladly write about Suleiman, maybe more than a full of A4 paper. but to talk about the power of him, another SE thread is more meaningful.
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    If you think a little bit, THAT part isn't bad.

    PHI is great for cottages. You can farm out Great Scientists in your GP farm faster, which means an earlier academy and possibly bulbing down liberalism faster. Good synergy for bulb/trade warring or just fast teching early. PHI does nothing to help research directly - its power is in GPP and after your first couple the majority are coming from one city - a GP farm...which every halfway decent cottage empire has.

    Where is CE weaker? Early game! Guess what PHI helps with!

    I don't like it for spies though. GW is good for sully just from the standpoint that you can abuse it for more/faster great generals, but I'd prefer to farm out early GP's faster than 5 spy points/turn because that's where PHI shines - massive early GP.

    Can this be accomplished while still using cottages though? Absolutely. And a mix of cottages and specialists is easily the best especially if you don't get the pyramids.
     
  13. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Are you kiddin' me? Phi doesn't help cottages produce GPP or anything.

    You're just describing how an empire should be organized and how GSs can be used... Nothing to do with CE. True every CE empire has cottaged cities, but in a SE, the cities that are producing the beakers are just running specialists. Most GPs come from the GPFarm(s) still.

    Now that's much better. Thing is, very early game you don't have specs and the food to run them and research overall isn't that important. When you enter classical/medieval age, you should be struggling to recover from REXing. One way is to try and get the slider back up - with cottages (where phi DOESN'T help) or with a low slider and scis. But what do you do with those GSs? Academy is mediocre as your slider is generally low still- Settling isn't that hot so early. Bulbing OTOH is great to trade your way back on par with the AI or slow down them in the liberalism race (a tactic not often talked of - bulb philo early, found taoism so it becomes a low priority to the AI and they'll research other techs than those on the way to liberalism).

    100% agree. If you want GSpies (and you can't run many of them) phi is just wasted. In fact I consider trying to have 90%+ for GSpy a real waste of GPP mostly as you could run much more specs which generate more GPP and less % for GSpy.

    I don't really see the point of IMP + GW fighting early defensive wars tough. Early your defences are generally weak, you need to build up your empire and need trade routes. Warring destroys everything and slows you down. All that for the +2XP in a city? Nah...
     
  14. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Deity

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    I think this strategy only works when you have a map with only 2 civs early on the continent, or 3 civs but somehow u need to completely eliminate one of the 2 AIs through early rush.
     
  15. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    Why do you think so EEE_BOY???

    The more civs around, the more EPs the AI whose techs you want to steal spends on other AIs, making your missions cheaper.
     
  16. karmina

    karmina Warlord

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    You should try Frederick (phil+org) on a Boreal map with raging barbs.

    Settle on stone with tons of food around (plains forest deers and river wheat are best). Your starting techs are just perfect (hunting, mining). Research Archery + Masonry. Build order: Worker, 3 Archers (raging barbs!), Great Wall.

    After that, build a settler to grab metal, 2-3 more workers, and chop the Pyramids. On deity, the land will be settled by barbs in no time, so you don't need (much) more settlers, just swords and axes. Make sure it's you who conquers the barb land, and not the AI. Your economy will crash, so use your representation libraries to get to Caste System, and pop rush a lot of cheap courthouses.

    Given the abundance of food resources and total lack of commerce, espionage only works on Boreal as supporting early economy - in fact you'll want to run as much scientists as possible, this is total SE. An interesting move could be to steal Theology, then rush for an extremely early Oxford (you got 2x production) without the Civil Service detour.
     
  17. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    I like to play unrestricted leaders, and it would be a good way to try this strategy with sumeria. Gigglemesh is ******** since protective sucks, so one could be Suleiman of the Sumerians, or whoever.

    Another point: If at all possible, capture the holy city of your religion. This will make espionage even cheaper. I should say capture if it they're your neighbor and not the one with the tech lead that you're focusing your espionage on. :)
     
  18. helemaalnicks

    helemaalnicks Warlord

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    Nice article, Im always happy to see people advertise for my favourite economy type. However, i don't understand why EE can't power itself?? You said you need research because EE is not strong enough to steal every single tech. I played multiple emperor games using the EE, and I strongly disagree. Imo, the best thing about EE is, that you don't need to build:

    libraries, universities, observatories, labaratories. Instead you only need cheap walls and castles. This frees up a lot of hammers in the renaissance for nice and easy warring. Actually, if you only use the EE you kinda have to go to war in the renaissance, because at some point units are the only thing you can build. So i actually advocate a EE only strategy postalphabet. In my current game charlemagne vassalized a whole bunch of other ai's, which makes winning hard. But i have a very big "techlead". By that I mean, I just got constitution in, and I have more then 10k EP on all 6 ai's.

    The only tech I sometimes research myself is CoL, because it usually gives you a 20% EP boost, and ai's tend to research it very late if confusianism is already taken on another island.

    I agree about the philosophic thread being the best one by a long shot. I actually thing financial is useless for any economy type.
     
  19. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    There is one problem with an EE based on the slider. You are always at a tech deficit or at best tech parity. Sometimes you are forced into that type, but purposedly targeting that type of game never sits right to me.

    The one time I can using it (mentioned by a poster although I never did it) is to cathup in techs if in a big hole, particularly if isolated and exploring Ais settle your homeland.
     
  20. Yesod

    Yesod Warlord

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    I tried this strategy once and found myself building research too make up for the lack of science
     

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