The Greek Thread

[BuchiTaton]

Alexander is perfectly OK as a Greek leader.

Now, if there is a constant dilemma about the many states of Ancient Greece, why not turn that into an unique Greek mechanic?!
Bring back Hellenic League as UA but this time it allows to turn one of your cities into the Hegemon (capital) every new era. Then, depending of that city's specialization (culture, military, trade, etc.) it provides different bonus for your whole empire (including bigger chances to gain Great People of the corresponding kind). By the way if you want Gymnasium as a unique what about this.

- Gymnasium must be placed adjacent to the City Center.​

- Can build only one Gymnasium per city.​

- Each Gymnasium of every city provide bonus to the districts on the two tiles that are simultaneously neighboring them and their City Center.​

- Additionaly the neighboring districts to the Gymnasium in your Hegemon(capital) city provides you the empire wide Hellenic League bonuses.​

- Regardless the adjacency it produce a base Culture and Amenities value (maybe some military bonus also).​

So we have a Greek civ that can be good in many different roles as the player want. After all, was not Ancient Greece famous by their culture, science, military, religion, trade, etc? Greece is one of those TOP10 civs that should not be limited to a couple of thematics.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1. Theban or Sicilian. I don't understand why Athens or Spartar centric and ignore Magna Graecia CS?

First Firaxis would have to admit a Thebes city existed in Classical Greece, and not just Egypt.
Though to be fair there are still some aspects and leaders of Athens such as Solon and Cleisthenes that have never been touched on. There's certainly a reason why Athenian Greece though is prioritized over others, especially Sicily because those were originally just colonies of the larger city-states from Greece proper.

 

[Patine]

First Firaxis would have to admit a Thebes city existed in Classical Greece, and not just Egypt.
Though to be fair there are still some aspects and leaders of Athens such as Solon and Cleisthenes that have never been touched on.

And Draco.

 

[Evie]

Yeah, but if we put a leader named Draco into the game we'll have five mods on release day turning him into Tom Felton. At least. XD

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

One of the reasons for the emphasis in the game on Athens and to a slightly lesser degree, Sparta, is that we know more about the political, social, and military institutions of those two than any other Greek city states. If Bftszgh the Game Developer looks up Classical Greece anywhere, he will get a lot more information about those two city states than just about any other city or combination of cities. That makes it very easy to build a "Greek Civ" based on them rather than go digging for bits and pieces about other city states to try to meld into a Civ.

But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of variety in the information we have about those two.

First, admit that Sparta (Lacedaemonia) was an Outlier: a peculiar form of Monarchy to support a completely militarized society that sacrificed everything else: trade, culture, science - for Military Excellence. That's a pretty limited basis for a Civ, because while others might admire your single-mindedness, sooner or later somebody Bigger and Meaner always comes along, and the Spartan player get his feet sharpened and driven into the ground like a Nail.

Athens, on the other hand, exemplifies what I consider some of the major considerations of any Classically-based Greek Civ: a solid military, both land and sea, very good science, culture, social developments, a range of political institutions, and an economy based on both specialized production and Trade.

- And the potential to base many of those characteristics on either Civ or Leader attributes. For instance, Draco, Solon and Cleisthenes have all been mentioned as potential new Greek Leaders. They are all Athenian, and each is associated with a very different Political System.
Draco's government was an Oligarchy, run by a Council composed of the 'best men' - the aristoi or Aristocrats, and everybody else simply obeyed or died. 'Draconian' has entered the English language to describe his laws and punishments, for good reason: his Law Code has been aptly summed up as "Everything that is not Compulsory is Forbidden On Pain of Death". This is a government run strictly by and for those that are at the very top of the heap: nobody else has any political or economic power.
Cleisthenes is the first historically-attested Democrat: he opened the privilege of holding almost all of the municipal offices and voting in the Assembly to virtually every adult male Athenian (slaves, women, and Metics - foreigners, no matter how long they had been in the city, were still excluded) and so even the most economically insignificant individual and class had potentially huge political clout. This political system has all the well-known aspects of Democracy: the difficulty of making a decision in the first place, the tendency to change their minds as soon as things go wrong, but also immense Loyalty, since everyone has some kind of political stake in the state.
In between falls Solon. His contribution is, I think, greater than either of the other two, but also more subtle: he built a government that had Checks and Balances built in. It still had the Council of aristocrats (now both Aristoi and Hippeis - knights, the two most financially secure groups) and limited all the government positions to the top three classes, who were both the richest and also the land owners: the first historical evidence for the importance of 'Real Estate' as an important factor in choosing leaders, a system that persists to this day. BUT while the lowest class, the 'laborers' who worked for wage and had no 'real' property, were prohibited from holding any political Office, they could serve on Juries - and in Athens, a Jury could be thousands of people, and could sentence anybody to death or exile. That meant the 'downtrodden masses' could only be trodden so far before they ripped your figurative foot off and beat you to death with it in the Jury Trials. Therefore, the Solonic Constitution had both the Loyalty bonus of 'true' Democracy, but also could make and stick to decisions like a government with fewer and more homogenous Decision-Makers.

So, any of these leaders could be associated with very different government type and characteristics of Social Policy, Civics, Loyalty, etc.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ What's your choice? Between Draco (Is he the origin of the word 'Dragon' that means mythical firebreathing reptiles that some can fly), Cleisthenes, and Solon ?

UU Choice. if Trireme is to be generic naval unit of Classical Era.

 

[pineappledan]

UU Choice. if Trireme is to be generic naval unit of Classical Era.

I've gone into this before, but I don't think the trireme, or any -reme, for that matter, has any place as a base unit. Their mortis and tenon construction was an evolutionary dead-end for ship design, and they are neither universalizable nor in any way representative of ships around the world. They're just too weird.

The Phoenicians, or Carthaginians or some sort of Punic people should have a -reme as a unique unit, since they were the inventors of that style of ship. The Corinthians merely created the version with 3 banks of oars, just as the Syracusans developed the version with 5 banks of oars. The layout, construction and design of that entire clade of ships, however, is a Phoenician invention.

The Greeks have enough genuine innovations of their own that they don't need to steal from another culture. They invented the double torsion-armed siege engine, known in popular culture as the ballista. Their reliance on heavy infantry was novel, from the Hoplites to the Phalangite Pikemen of Philip II, and ushered in subsequent waves of infantry revolutions in the world of antiquity. I think either of those are better options for a UU.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I've gone into this before, but I don't think the trireme, or any -reme, for that matter, has any place as a base unit. Their mortis and tenon construction was an evolutionary dead-end for ship design, and they are neither universalizable nor in any way representative of ships around the world. They're just too weird.

The Phoenicians, or Carthaginians or some sort of Punic people should have a -reme as a unique unit, since they were the inventors of that style of ship. The Corinthians merely created the version with 3 banks of oars, just as the Syracusans developed the version with 5 banks of oars. The layout, construction and design of that entire clade of ships, however, is a Phoenician invention.

The Greeks have enough genuine innovations of their own that they don't need to steal from another culture. They invented the double torsion-armed siege engine, known in popular culture as the ballista. Their reliance on heavy infantry was novel, from the Hoplites to the Phalangite Pikemen of Philip II, and ushered in subsequent waves of infantry revolutions in the world of antiquity. I think either of those are better options for a UU.

Considering the Trireme was instrumental in making Athens a maritime empire, I think it would be suitable to let the trireme potentially be a LUU at least for an Athenian leader like Pericles or Themistocles.
But as far as the main civ UU, I agree. To me the Hoplite is really too iconic to get rid of.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Why not? More Greek rep, and Athens et al. get to be portrayed as city-states rather than being bundled into a civ, which is more accurate for their preferred portrayal in history too. Win-win. We can have both a Hellenic major civ and Hellenic minor civs.

Maybe you block the city-states from appearing in-game if Alexander is on the map, but the beauty of using Macedon is that you don’t have to do that.

I agree with this idea, maybe Greece could be represented by two city states (Athens and Sparta). I know there was more but these two was great antagonist of classical Greece.
And just have ONE civ to Macedon lead by Alexander the Great will help to diminish the overrepresentation of Greeks on this game.

 

[Patine]

I agree with this idea, maybe Greece could be represented by two city states (Athens and Sparta). I know there was more but these two was great antagonist of classical Greece.
And just have ONE civ to Macedon lead by Alexander the Great will help to diminish the overrepresentation of Greeks on this game.

This is not only a bad idea, but will likely go over like a lead balloon with Civ players, in general. Plus, there is much more to Greek Civilization than just Alexander, and he's way overrepresented.

 

[pokiehl]

And just have ONE civ to Macedon lead by Alexander the Great

I agree with this. I think Alexander deserves and fits best in his own civ and hope to see Macedon return alongside Greece.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I agree with this idea, maybe Greece could be represented by two city states (Athens and Sparta). I know there was more but these two was great antagonist of classical Greece.
And just have ONE civ to Macedon lead by Alexander the Great will help to diminish the overrepresentation of Greeks on this game.

So your solution to the overrepresentation of Greeks is by including two Greek city-states along with a Macedonian civilization?

I agree with this. I think Alexander deserves and fits best in his own civ and hope to see Macedon return alongside Greece.

If alternate leaders were to return, which would be my preference, I do think there are ways that Alexander could go back to Greece. I could see him as a more militaristic leader like what they did with Gorgo. Though if alternate leaders don't return, I'd also be satisfied with Alexander leading a separate Macedon civ, so Greece could have another.

Regardless, I want Alexander to keep coming back.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I agree with this. I think Alexander deserves and fits best in his own civ and hope to see Macedon return alongside Greece.

Actually I'm not a suporter to have Greece and Macedon at same time, but indeed have just the Macedon civ lead by Alexander the Great and the cities of Athens and Sparta appearing as city state should be the best.

there is much more to Greek Civilization than just Alexander, and he's way overrepresented.

That I agree, Alexander is overrepresented on this series of games. He was in all games since Civ 1.
But I'm okay with that, I think some great conquerors as Alexander, Gengis Khan and Shaka Zulu should be yes in all games.

So your solution to the overrepresentation of Greeks is by including two Greek city-states along with a Macedonian civilization?

I think this solution is better then have 3 greek leaders, I imagine to do a city state is quite easier and this shoul lead room for other civs appears.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think this solution is better then have 3 greek leaders, I imagine to do a city state is quite easier and this shoul lead room for other civs appears.

At most I'd want two. Alexander and another (most likely Pericles).

 

[Patine]

Actually I'm not a suporter to have Greece and Macedon at same time, but indeed have just the Macedon civ lead by Alexander the Great and the cities of Athens and Sparta appearing as city state should be the best.

That I agree, Alexander is overrepresented on this series of games. He was in all games since Civ 1.
But I'm okay with that, I think some great conquerors as Alexander, Gengis Khan and Shaka Zulu should be yes in all games.


I think this solution is better then have 3 greek leaders, I imagine to do a city state is quite easier and this shoul lead room for other civs appears.

Greece, like Rome, Egypt, China, and Mesopotamia, are what most people think of first as, "Classical Civilizations." Declaring, arbitrarily, that Greece needs to cut down to a minimum representation in a CIV iteration, of all things - would be a HIGHLY damaging decision to the franchise, and gain ABSOLUTELY NO benefit in return.

 

[pokiehl]

Actually I'm not a suporter to have Greece and Macedon at same time, but indeed have just the Macedon civ lead by Alexander the Great and the cities of Athens and Sparta appearing as city state should be the best.

Oh, then I entirely disagree with you. There's no way that Greece should be relegated to being a minor faction.

 

[pineappledan]

How much Greece is too much?

In civ 5 they had Greece led by Alexander and no Greek city-states, and arguably Byzantium.
In civ 6 they had Greece with 2 leaders, Macedon with Alexander, and a couple Hellenized civs like Byzantium and Cleopatra leading Egypt with 2 personas, but no city-states. I think people generally agreed that the way Greece bled into the representation of other factions got to be a bit silly.

I think having 1 major civ and a handful of city-states is just a better way to split that baby. You can have more Greek rep than civ 5, but less than civ 6.

edit: I'm also in the camp that thinks 2 entire separate civs for Macedon and Greece was going too far. Alternate leaders would have been fine, but entirely new civs was uncalled for.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think having 1 major civ and a handful of city-states is just a better way to split that baby. You can have more Greek rep than civ 5, but less than civ 6.

Having Greece as a civ with 2 leaders, like Alexander and another Athenian one, with Byzantium as a separate civ added later on, seems like an acceptable compromise.

I highly doubt the majority of people will want to play with Athens as a minor faction. I'd rather they cut Alexander and Macedon out of Civ 7, and keep Classical Greece if there was a choice. And I say that as a big fan of keeping Alexander the Great in the game.

 

[pokiehl]

edit: I'm also in the camp that thinks 2 entire separate civs for Macedon and Greece was going too far. Alternate leaders would have been fine, but entirely new civs was uncalled for.

It's not uncalled for at all. If any person in history warrants this, it's Alexander. The unique components of an Alexander domination-focused faction would not have suited Greece, and vice versa.

Having Greece as a civ with 2 leaders, like Alexander and another Athenian one, with Byzantium as a separate civ added later on, seems like an acceptable compromise.

I think having Alexander as an alternate leader would have been like fitting a square peg in a circle. The unique components of Macedon just suit that style of gameplay so much better.

By splitting up Greece and Macedon into separate factions, instead of having one Hellenic civ having to be everything to everyone, we can give both designs their due focus.

 

[pineappledan]

I have different priorities when it comes to who and where should get representation, and greece getting 2 fully fleshed-out factions in a roster of 50 was, by my estimation going too far. Greece certainly is deserving of a spot in a game of civilizations, but not 2 slots. That's just beating a dead horse as far as I'm concerned.