The hazard of accidental CS alliances

[Smokeybear]

Since G&K and all of the new (largely automatic) ways to gain influence with city states, I am finding it hard NOT to gain automatic alliances with many city states across the globe, whether I want them or not. While that is all well and good from the standpoint of bonus resources, happiness, culture, and so forth, it can frequently be very bad from the standpoint of maintaining friendly relationships with the rest of the civs.

Unless you are sucking it hard and losing the game, you likely are doing well enough in one or more aspects of your civ's development to win a number of the 'influence challenge' quests that most CS's regularly throw out. And no matter how hard you try to do everything in your power to stay friendly with X civ, eventually you'll accidentally 'steal' an alliance with one of their favored CS's via one of these automated influence quests, and take a serious diplo hit with them.

They take CS-pilfering very seriously, and it has led to very bad consequences from previously lovey-dovey civs... denouncements, worthless lux trading prices, and often eventually to group DoW's by 'axis of evil' alliances against me- and all originating from my unintentional CS theft(s). These diplo-damaging automated CS alliances happen to me at least once every game. Usually MANY times every game.

Unless I'm missing something about a way to prevent this from happening, I think they need to add a way for the player to turn down CS quests that would harm your diplomatic relationships, or give you a 'yes/no' option when a CS wants to bestow an alliance upon you for whatever it is you didn't even know you were doing to make them all creamy 'n stuff. Shouldn't the act of allying with a foreign entity always be a mutual thing? Why should any alliance be unavoidably forced upon the player in the game? I think that's wrong. Thoughts?

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

at worst ive accidentally allied a cultural CS and the bonuses threw off my policy timing. but for the most part i havent experienced what you are experiencing, meaning when i cant sell a lux for 240g anymore and its because its from a diplo hit from accidentally allying a civ i generally just accept it and move on. ive yet to see that be the reason for a DoW though.

but its an interesting point regarding both unintended/uncontrollable consequences, particularly with 'the most amount of techs/culture/faith will give you favor with a CS' kind of quests. because i usually lose those the only ones i care about are the 'discover a natural wonder', 'build a wonder', and 'remove barb camp' quests for being unintended.

 

[Teleon22]

I personally would like to have control over who I’m allied with or not. It is a bit ridiculous that you can simply automatically become allied or even good friends with City States that you don’t really want anything to do with for fear of angering another Civilization who might have the power to give you a black eye. I agree the suggestion that players should have the right to choose to accept these quests for the influence or reject them. I do not like how, by simply enhancing your own civilization that you automatically gain influence with City States you don’t even care about.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Once you've accidentally stolen a CS alliance, you are virtually guaranteed coup murder-spam every turn for a long time after the renaisance.

 

[Ookamikun]

This is why I always turn off espionage, they tend to be more annoying regarding CS.

When fighting vs. CS-relying civs, I make it a point to save enough money, buy off nearly all of the CSes, then declare war.

 

[Big J Money]

Hm, yes CS alliance should be opt-in

 

[bcaiko]

Hm, yes CS alliance should be opt-in

I've never really thought about it (since there's never been a situation where I didn't want to be any CityState's ally), but I definitely agree.

There are also situations where becoming a CS ally will just ensure the AI will throw a coup and be able to supplant you. Whereas if there were no other ally, the AI would have no option of staging the coup and no other way to become the CS's ally. Hmmm...

 

[AriochIV]

The only time I have ever seen any significant diplomatic hit due to city-state relations was when I actively bullied city-states that were under someone else's protection. The frequent chatter caused by switching city-state alliances seems to have almost no real impact on relations... I can tell a friendly civilization a hundred times "You will pay for this in time" for their accidental war due to changed CS alliance, and nothing ever comes of it.

 

[Smokeybear]

The only time I have ever seen any significant diplomatic hit due to city-state relations was when I actively bullied city-states that were under someone else's protection. The frequent chatter caused by switching city-state alliances seems to have almost no real impact on relations... I can tell a friendly civilization a hundred times "You will pay for this in time" for their accidental war due to changed CS alliance, and nothing ever comes of it.

An example of my experiences- small empire, cultural... I mind my own business, trading with everyone, not making DoF's that will get me hated by others, staying out of wars, just building up my civ like a churchmouse. Of course I maintain a decent military so as not to look like a tempting target, and only ally with CS'es that do not already have a benefactor.

So as my culture, science, and great-person totals start to tally up nicely, the new CS influence-quest system eventually automatically starts stealing alliances with CS's that belong to the rich, powerful, and jealous. Unless you gimp your civ for sure failure, there is no avoiding this.

What invariably happens then, is they call you on your theft, you say 'OMG, I'm so sorry, it'll never happen again!' Well, guess what invariably happens again... lol! So sure, even though they were likely already harboring hidden thoughts about coveting your lands, or jealousy over wonders, or other things... the accidental CS stealing is very often the straw that pisses the camel off enough to start actively looking for ways to take you out.

Then it's a steep and rapidly deteriorating road to hell, with them stiffing you on your goods at first, then paying off a league of civ sycophants to gang-denounce you and stiff you too. And then the wars. It's hard enough walking the fine line of peace and friendship while trying to stay out of trouble in this game, without those automatic CS alliances giving the AI one more phat camel-tipping reason to hate on you.

Make it optional, as it should be.

 

[Halcyan2]

There have been cases where I would not want to ally with a CS because I am currently at war with an AI near that CS and if I ally with the CS he's just going to get trashed and taken over quickly (say by Mongolia). So I can see that being forced into an accidental CS alliance could inadvertently lead to the demise of the CS.

 

[AriochIV]

As you get more successful (as you must be if you're winning culture and tech contests), the civilizations that had only been pretending to like you will start plotting against you... just because you're winning. I'm not sure that the changing city-state alliances have very much to do with it.

I find that in G&K the complaint "You're getting too friendly with my city-state" is now fairly rare, especially in the late game.

 

[Harv72b]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a CS 30-turn challenge by itself won't get you allied to said city state, let alone usurp someone else. Unless you already have a friendship with that city state, you're only going to "accidentally" get to 60 influence by coincidentally completing one quest (find a NW, build a wonder, etc) within a few turns of the end of the challenge...I just don't see that happening very often.

Also, as someone who plays a game style which is heavily anchored in CS alliances, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had an AI actually get mad at me over allying with one. From time to time I'll get the "That's nice & all but" message, which I'll reply to with the "Sorry this has caused a divide" and, so long as we're on good terms otherwise, that's the end of that.

If this is leading you to denunciations, poor trade offers, or DoWs from AIs then, well...as my mother would say, they obviously weren't very good friends to begin with.

 

[Babri]

I don't really care much about other civs. If they want a piece of me, then come and get it !
Well in my experience other civs don't hate as much as they did pre-G&K when u ally a CS near them.