The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence

[Arakhor]

Culturaly: Spain and all governments have tried to kill our language, Until 40 years ago, we had just forbidden from using our language, celebrate our traditions, etc ... Not to mention the historical revisionism.

One thing is solidarity and other plunder. Also, having to endure that every day we called from "Nazi" to "beggars", Would you stay with someone like that?

Where do you think the English term to welsh comes from? The Victorians tried to wipe out the Welsh language.

On a related subject, for someone apparently so sensitive to political distinctions between culture and nationality, what is it with just dismissing British complexity? "England" has not negotiated with anyone in 300 years. The UK parliament in Westminster has been negotiating with the newish devolved Scots parliament in Holyrood, but that is not England negotiating with Scotland.

It would be more correct to say that all Catalans are Spanish than to claim that England and Scotland are autonomous parts of the UK.

 

[Domen]

Link to video.

 

[Wir0s]

Where do you think the English term to welsh comes from? The Victorians tried to wipe out the Welsh language.

On a related subject, for someone apparently so sensitive to political distinctions between culture and nationality, what is it with just dismissing British complexity? "England" has not negotiated with anyone in 300 years. The UK parliament in Westminster has been negotiating with the newish devolved Scots parliament in Holyrood, but that is not England negotiating with Scotland.

It would be more correct to say that all Catalans are Spanish than to claim that England and Scotland are autonomous parts of the UK.

I know England and Uk are not the same, but u know better than me... Its quite complicated to difference between england, uk, great britain, etc... From an outsider eyes. I just try to simplify.

The big big difference its the "democratic tradition", Spain dunn have it at all, look history, no more tan 44 years of democracy AT ALL.

[YOUTUBE-OLD]rNu8XDBSn10[/YOUTUBE-OLD]

 

[Domen]

Its quite complicated to difference between england, uk, great britain, etc.

Yes - one needs more than 5 minutes, even when talking very fast, to explain this:


Link to video.

 

[Arakhor]

I know England and Uk are not the same, but u know better than me... Its quite complicated to difference between england, uk, great britain, etc... From an outsider eyes. I just try to simplify.

I can understand the sentiment, but it's a very dangerous route on which to embark when you're busy trying to convince people (including a Briton) that Catalonia deserves to be distinct from Spain.

On a different note, why does your signature include an untranslated Latin quote from Tacitus, but then you list Tacitus' name in a language other than Latin? It would be like regurgitating a Greek quote (in Greek) from Emperor Leo VI and then not listing him as Leon ΣΤ ho Sophos (Λέων ΣΤ΄ ὁ Σοφό&#962.

 

[Domen]

but it's a very dangerous route on which to embark when you're busy trying to convince people (including a Briton) that Catalonia deserves to be distinct from Spain.

What is so dangerous in it?

By the way - I wonder why Spain did not recognize Kosovo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CountriesRecognizingKosovo.png

Countries recognizing the independence of Kosovo (green):

By the way - Kosovo was the cradle of the Serbian statehood, as for example this article (in Polish) says:

http://archeowiesci.pl/2008/02/18/kosowo-kolebka-serbii/

The first historical capital of Serbia - Metohija - was located near modern Pec in western Kosovo.

Since around half of the 14th century Pec was the religious capital of the Orthodox Church in Serbia.

Two other cities in Kosovo - Pristina and Prizren - were also capital cities of the Serbian Kingdom in various historical periods.

Kosovo is also the place where the most important battle in the history of Serbia took place in 1389.

 

[Arakhor]

You wouldn't want to be accused of hypocrisy for one thing.

That video wasn't a bad summary at all, but Wales in particular hasn't been a sovereign nation in something like 800 years. There are also more Channel Islands than just Guernsey and Jersey.

 

[Domen]

You wouldn't want to be accused of hypocrisy for one thing.

You are talking about my comparison of Kosovo to Catalonia or about what?

What I'm saying is that Kosovo is a historically more important region for Serbians, than Catalonia is for Spain.

Also there is no such thing like "Kosovian ethnic group" or "Kosovian language", because modern Kosovians are simply Albanians and they speak Albanian (like Palestinians in Israel are Arabs and speak Arab). On the other hand, there is Catalonian language (see post #402) and Catalonian ethnic group.

Albanians had one state - Albania. Now Albanians have two states - Albania and Kosovo. Catalonias don't have any.

Yet despite this Kosovo was recognized by the UK and Poland (see the map above) and by most of the democratic world.

So why would the UK and Poland and majority of the democratic world not recognize Catalonia ???

Spain did not recognize Kosovo, because it would be an indirect consent for Catalonians, the Basque people, etc. on its own territory.

 

[Lohrenswald]

You wouldn't want to be accused of hypocrisy for one thing.

That video wasn't a bad summary at all, but Wales in particular hasn't been a sovereign nation in something like 800 years. There are also more Channel Islands than just Guernsey and Jersey.

So what? That doesn't mean they have no right to seccede (I hope I spelled that right)

 

[Domen]

So what? That doesn't mean they have no right to seccede (I hope I spelled that right)

Exactly.

Israelis / Jews / Hebrews or call them as you want had not been a sovereign nation in something like 2000 or more years.

Yet in 1947 they were allowed to create a state in Palestine, where they were 5% of population before WW2 (high estimations say that 7%).

Looks like more unjust than demands of Catalonians or Kosovians to have their own states in regions, where they are majority of population.

 

[Arakhor]

Domen, my point was that if you're basing your claim to secede on being culturally distinct from your sovereign nation, it's probably not a good idea to focus on simplicity when talking about other countries.

I can't answer for the UK's actions with regard to Kosovo, but perhaps Parliament is less sensitive than the Spanish government in that regard.

So what? That doesn't mean they have no right to seccede (I hope I spelled that right)

I was just pointing out that the video was inaccurate in a couple of places. (Secede has one C.)

 

[Lohrenswald]

I was just pointing out that the video was inaccurate in a couple of places. (Secede has one C.)

Sorry and thanks.

So about 30 seconds in he says that the United Kingdom consists of 4 equal and sovereign nations.

As far as I have gathered, this is a complicated issue. The united kingdom is not federal, and the welsh, north irish and scottish parliaments are at the complete mercy of the parliament in London, correct?

So "England" has granted some autonomy to Wales, Scotland and northern Ireland, but can at any point "submurge" them again.

Am I correct in this?

 

[JohannaK]

Domen, my point was that if you're basing your claim to secede on being culturally distinct from your sovereign nation, it's probably not a good idea to focus on simplicity when talking about other countries.

Yeees. You're a Scot, if I remember correctly. And you're going to vote no next year, aye?
Sometimes one just doesn't remember to do the distinction.

I do think that Catalonia would be somewhat content with a UK-like arrangement. I use sometimes the comparison, I say that Spain is the UK trying to become France.

 

[Wir0s]

I can understand the sentiment, but it's a very dangerous route on which to embark when you're busy trying to convince people (including a Briton) that Catalonia deserves to be distinct from Spain.

On a different note, why does your signature include an untranslated Latin quote from Tacitus, but then you list Tacitus' name in a language other than Latin? It would be like regurgitating a Greek quote (in Greek) from Emperor Leo VI and then not listing him as Leon ΣΤ ho Sophos (Λέων ΣΤ΄ ὁ Σοφό&#962.

We know that will not be easy, but we dont have any other choice... Secesion or dissapear.

Easy... the quotation were in their original languaje (because everything sounds better in latin) but de source was in spanish, so, the name its translated.

 

[Masada]

The economic issue just seems to be the latest issue in the ongoing Catalan antipathy towards Spain.

I can understand the sentiment, but it's a very dangerous route on which to embark when you're busy trying to convince people (including a Briton) that Catalonia deserves to be distinct from Spain.

How is it that the desire of Catalonians for independence needs to be justified to a Briton? Methinks the Irish didn't ask the French for approval.

I do think that Catalonia would be somewhat content with a UK-like arrangement. I use sometimes the comparison, I say that Spain is the UK trying to become France.

I'd argue that Spain is rather more like the United Kingdom if it still included all of Ireland. The depth of Catalan dislike seems to be rather more than the Scots can muster.

 

[JohannaK]

But the Basques are the Irish of Spain! (Because IRA-ETA, duh)

Otherwise, I'd agree.

 

[Arwon]

http://www.jhubc.it/bcjournal/articles/desquens.cfm

These studies estimate the Catalan fiscal imbalance with Spain to be between 7.5 percent and 10 percent of the Catalan GDP i.e. for every 100 euros of income created yearly in Catalonia, between 7.5 and ten never return. In absolute terms, the deficit is between about 6.7 billion and about 9 billion euros or around 1,240 euros annually per capita (using the median of the estimates, 7.9 billion euros).

This is a highly abnormal situation when comparing Catalonia to similar regions in other E.U countries.

http://www.it-intransit.eu/articles/catalonia-has-highest-taxes-spain

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/opinion/a-new-call-for-catalonias-independence.html?_r=0

The region accounts for about one-fourth of Spain’s exports. But for every euro Catalans pay in taxes, only 57 cents is spent in the region. Before taxes, Catalonia is the fourth richest of Spain’s 17 autonomous regions. After taxes, it drops to ninth — a form of forced redistribution unparalleled in contemporary Europe.

Like I said, when I compare that to the fiscal imbalance of Minnesota (for every 100 dollars of income created yearly in Minnesota, 17 never return), or Western Australia, I'm left distinctly unimpressed.

 

[Masada]

But the Basques are the Irish of Spain! (Because IRA-ETA, duh)

More like Northern Ireland perhaps? I don't know. The analogy kind of broke down.

Like I said, when I compare that to the fiscal imbalance of Minnesota, or Western Australia, I'm left distinctly unimpressed.

I'd like to think Western Australia, like Queensland, was culturally distinct and had (real) grievances against the government. Except it doesn't

It's also important to note that GST distribution has nothing to do with the actual collections in that state because the ATO doesn't collect locational data and couldn't even if it wanted to (corporate headquarters for a lot of firms being in Sydney and what-not). Income tax which has a less mobile base can, I believe, be attributed based on location. Instead, GST shares are calculated in relation to an equal per capita arrangement. Thus a GST relativity of 0.7 simply means that the state is getting 70% of its per capita allotment.

 

[Arwon]

Yeah, I'm trying to find American-style estimates on how much Commonwealth tax is spent in each state, but there's nothing immediately apparent. My suspicion is with the low unemployment rate in WA, youngish population and high incomes, that they're probably not even getting 70% of general taxation back. WA's per capita GSP is now nearly 100k per capita, more than double Tasmania and nearly double South Australia. There's no way they're getting much back. It could well be under half.

I think a picture could be pieced together out of the ABS State Accounts but I don't think I care that much.

 

[Masada]

I don't know. The GST redistribution isn't that large. The CGC's 2013 Update tells me the difference between the equal per capita distribution and Western Australia's share is $3075 per capita. I have like zero idea about the situation with regards to general taxation. But it pays to keep in mind that GSP per capita doesn't have that much to do with fiscal capacity. The Northern Territory for example has the third highest GSP per capita but has a low fiscal capacity. Federal funding and all that junk.

I think a picture could be pieced together out of the ABS State Accounts but I don't think I care that much.

Lololol balancing item. :3