The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence

[Arwon]

Collective rights and will should never be imposed over individual freedoms, however.

This is interesting because the tax redistribution complaints are very collective in outlook.

 

[JohannaK]

And their benefits are collective too.

 

[History_Buff]

Why should you? Simply acknowledge and respect what Catalans decide, that's all. And why shouldn't you do that? There are no reasons to oppose a democratic decision taken by a free people?

Well at the end of the day you're going to have to convince your Castillian oppressors, and the rest of the world community. Else you can vote all you want, and nothing will change.

 

[JohannaK]

Castillians are convinced. They try to convince themselves and everybody else of the contrary by saying that the resulting Catalan state would leave Europe and the Euro, it would be unable to pay pensions and subsidies and and all and that Spain would boycott it and the economy would plummet and blah blah blah.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

It's not clear that national self-determination is actually a "right". It's certainly caused, or helped cause, some of the worst atrocities and most egregious bloodshed of the twentieth century, along with untold amounts of international instability.

But why should we learn from mistakes of the past ? It's not like history repeats itself right ? YOLO

 

[Domen]

It's certainly caused, or helped cause, some of the worst atrocities and most egregious bloodshed of the twentieth century, along with untold amounts of international instability.

But those atrocities were commited by those who wanted to self-determine themselves or by those who wanted to prevent that self-determination of some group taking place? Maybe provide us with some examples of such atrocities.

But why should we learn from mistakes of the past ?

Someone here proposed that Catalans should fight for their independence, instead of trying to achieve it with peaceful means. And precisely this guy is the one who does not learn from mistakes of the past. War in itself is a mistake of the past. As a veteran of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising recently said in his speech during the anniversary, humanity did not learn anything from the past and wars are still frequent events.

And when it comes to what Dachs said - one more comment:

If there was common both international and intrastate agreement that all communities of people should be allowed the right of national self-determination, then there would be no atrocities and bloodshed because everything would be done peacefully - for example in a referendum or in a plebiscite.

What caused bloodshed, was not "the right to self-determination", but quite the contrary - resistance against attempts of self-determination - which was forcing those who wanted to separate, to undertake armed struggle for their cause, instead of seceding peacefully. So Dachs is mistaken.

 

[Arwon]

So Dachs is mistaken.

Mate if self-determination was as neat or easy as you present, there wouldn't be self-determination movements.

And the idea that all violence ever to occur in any secession situation was driven by the original state is fanciful in the extreme.

 

[Dachs]

Mate if self-determination was as neat or easy as you present, there wouldn't be self-determination movements.

And the idea that all violence ever to occur in any secession situation was driven by the original state is fanciful in the extreme.

Fanciful, yeah, but it also serves his purposes as an apologist for Polish nationalism.

 

[Gucumatz]

A right to a nationality. Again, you all are Catalonians a member of the Spanish federation.

Your culture is not being oppressed

Your people are not being stripped of their rights

You all are equal class citizens to other members of your state
===========

People may have a right to basic human accords from their state. But a right to a "Nationality"? I have to disagree. Collective rights by definition should be imposed over individual freedoms depending on the situation

There is a huge difference between a long oppression of a people and slight dissatisfaction with the legislative policies of a polity. You have your right to a nationality, as members of Spain

 

[JohannaK]

Now you tell me that 300 years for the most of which we have been exploited as the last colony of the Spanish Empire, in which for long periods of time our language has been forbidden and our institutions persecuted, those 300 years were not 300 years of oppression. Which we can easily extend another century, taking into account the Spanish Army's misdoings in Catalonia during the 17th Century.

 

[Phrossack]

Now you tell me that 300 years for the most of which we have been exploited as the last colony of the Spanish Empire, in which for long periods of time our language has been forbidden and our institutions persecuted, those 300 years were not 300 years of oppression. Which we can easily extend another century, taking into account the Spanish Army's misdoings in Catalonia during the 17th Century.

You haven't been oppressed. And why do you care about what happened 300 years ago? If everyone held onto grudges as long as you do, the citizens of Magdeburg would probably bar Catholics from entering town, and the Germans and Russians would despise the Swedes. The real oppression is long gone from Catalonia, and Francisco Franco is still dead.

There are some arguments to be made for Catalan independence-- you've already discussed economic issues-- but your disagreements with the bloody Treaty of Utrecht which was ratified in bloody 1713 is not one of them.

Spoiler :

Cookie to anyone who gets the reference in the last sentence

 

[JohannaK]

We demand a compensation. Just like positive discrimination or however is called that policy by which people of colour are prioritised over other people under certain circumstances. You cant erase 250 years of economic and cultural mistreatment with 40 years of cultural tolerance, which is fading away anyway, and less economic mistreatment.

 

[Dachs]

We demand a compensation. Just like positive discrimination or however is called that policy by which people of colour are prioritised over other people under certain circumstances. You cant erase 250 years of economic and cultural mistreatment with 40 years of cultural tolerance, which is fading away anyway, and less economic mistreatment.

Yeah, see, in the United States, blacks, Hispanics, and whatnot have to deal with a long legacy of economically disadvantageous situations that have a real modern footprint in terms of poverty, poor schooling, and so on. Whereas Catalonians' primary non-cultural argument for seceding from Spain is that they're too rich for the rest of the country.

 

[JohannaK]

But they take away all of our money and then they say we're selfish and not contributing at all and insult us with all words imaginable. We're Nazis, we're a tumor, we're a permanent revolt and a threat.

One of the seven "Fathers of the Constitution" of 1978 said one or two years ago that Spain had a choice between keeping Catalonia or keeping Portugal, and that it should have chosen Portugal. He then said quoted a 19th Century general in saying that every 50 years Barcelona had to be bombarded to keep its inhabitants submitted, and that he only hoped it would not be necessary this time.

we are not Spaniards, in the conception of Castillian Spaniards, who vinculate the nation and the state to a cultural and, primarily, linguistic union. Catalonia is, along with the Basque Country, one of the two communities which have been ruled by a regional party for most of democracy instead of mere regional sections of the two big country-wide parties. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

 

[Arwon]

But they take away all of our money

*A proportion of our money roughly in line with very high income areas of other countries

 

[JohannaK]

Still, it is a proportion unseen in Europe.

 

[dutchfire]

Taxes are theft either way.

 

[JohannaK]

Yeah, I'll contact Ron Paul to come here and direct our steps to freedom.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

He's busy with the Happening. He warned you, you didn't listen....this is your fault.

 

[Peck of Arabia]

... Treaty of Utrecht which was ratified in bloody 1713... Cookie to anyone who gets the reference in the last sentence

I'm not putting my head the parapet over that again...