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The Imperialistic Trait, Underrated?

Rusten

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Aug 14, 2007
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Greetings CivFanatics! This might be old news to some of you but I thought I'd open a thread for discussion regardless. I've been browsing this forum for a while and very often come across posts saying the imperialistic trait (and protective, but that's for another time) is almost worthless. I have to disagree. Recently I've been playing games with Genghis Khan (AGG/IMP) and he turned out to be a much better leader than I had thought in advance. Why you may ask, well, I'll get to that below.

50% :hammers: boost on settler is very powerful in the beginning phase of the game. Some might frown and say that it doesn't matter much as food is a huge part of the production, but my discovery/usage of this bonus is basically to chop settlers while growing my city and amassing an army to fight the barbs. One of the big problems of early expansion is the fact that settlers halt growth, but if you research bronze working and get a worker out you can simply chop some forests (BTS often has starting spots with many many forests) and switch to the settler production the turn the chopping completes. This all sounds good in theory, but when I put it to practice the results were even better than I had imagined. I found myself expanding at the pace of the deity AI, and much faster than immortal AIs.

At higher difficulties waiting for that population of 5 before producing settlers might not cut it as the good spots will already be taken on crowded maps like for instance Pangea. You will also be able to start growing your cottages sooner. This has a lot of micro-management to it, but I like that personally. For extra boost you can switch to every hammer tile (especially if your capital starts with bronze and several hills) and go to starving mode during the settler turn only to switch back to food while producing an archer or an axeman.

The reason why I went for Genghis Khan is the aggressive trait which has a lot of synergy to this strategy and the fact that he starts with the wheel which is a requirement for pottery (cottages) and to hook up bronze but also starting with hunting (scout) which will map out your land faster and know where to put your cities. Building such a huge empire makes conquest a very viable option. You can start by razing barbarian cities and gain a lot of cash to hold the upkeep for your military.

You might say that this strategy will become less efficient as the game progresses and that's true. However there's the other part of the trait, the 100% bonus to great generals. By having all this land you're very likely to be able to out-produce your opponents throughout the game and able to war a lot. This means that you'll have even more of those GGs which is a good bonus for the entire game. You will probably suffer a little in tech early on, but don't worry too much about that - "land is power", and those cottages will get better and better. Some traits require thinking outside the box and are not as obvious/straightforward as for instance financial.

Feel free to agree/disagree and discuss my ideas. I hope I didn't scare you all away with the lenght of my post I was planning on making it short but it seems I got a little carried away on the small stuff. :blush:
 
I have to agree with you on the imperialistic trait. I play Bts on prince level and for the longest time i considered this one of the lesser traits. Recently I have started trying to play the game in a variety of new ways and have discovered that I totally underated imperialistic leaders. Gengis is one of my new favs. Try him out on unrestricted leaders with the zulu civ. This allows for some fast early expansion with less maintnance costs. Imperialistic = cheaper settlers. Agr = cheaper ikhandas (barracks). The ikhandas will help to hold down city costs from that quick early expansion until CoL comes online.

Oh, by the way this is my first post in any forum ever :goodjob:
 
I'm not a big fan of Imperialistic. Generally I find I get as many GGs with Charismatic leaders (thanks to the quicker promotions I presume) and the quicker promotions and boost to city happiness are bigger benefits than quicker settler production. Still I can see it might work well with an early rexing strategy especially combined with Creative or Organised.
 
Imperialistic trait isn't all that bad. You can get lot of Great Generals this way, which is nice (almost a free Theocracy/Vassalage!). There are many options: stagnating my early expansion (three cities or alike), build wonders, and then REX the rest of the land - it's so easy to catch-up with their settlers! Cheap settlers are good, because they are good and cheap. 100 hammers investment is big, so it's good to low it a bit.

Oh, and it is also a great trait in multiplayer, where expansion is a priority.

Protective, on the other hand... :crazyeye:
 
I'm not a big fan of Imperialistic. Generally I find I get as many GGs with Charismatic leaders (thanks to the quicker promotions I presume) and the quicker promotions and boost to city happiness are bigger benefits than quicker settler production. Still I can see it might work well with an early rexing strategy especially combined with Creative or Organised.

I also agree that the bonus of Charismatic is better, it's one of my favourites, but that trait is recognised by the public already. I'm not trying to say Imperialistic is the best trait here, that would be an overstatement. However it has its uses and I wanted to put attention to some of those uses and have more people recognise it as a playable trait. By switching the settler production on/off with chopping you'll only be halting growth about 2-3 turns early on for each settler with the added :hammers: overflow which is definitely something to appreciate. Being able to get to those sweet city spots faster and block off the AI is useful too. Creative would as you put out there also be a nice trait to use due to more effective cultural blocking and not having to get monuments.

Welcome to the forums jimjamss! :D
 
I also agree that the bonus of Charismatic is better, it's one of my favourites, but that trait is recognised by the public already. I'm not trying to say Imperialistic is the best trait here, that would be an overstatement. However it has its uses and I wanted to put attention to some of those uses and have more people recognise it as a playable trait. By switching the settler production on/off with chopping you'll only be halting growth about 2-3 turns early on for each settler with the added :hammers: overflow which is definitely something to appreciate. Being able to get to those sweet city spots faster and block off the AI is useful too. Creative would as you put out there also be a nice trait to use due to more effective cultural blocking and not having to get monuments.

Welcome to the forums jimjamss! :D

I agree that its playable. Although theres a lot of talk about top tier traits etc all of them seem to work with a bit of adaption of play to that traits strengths. 1 thing I haven't tried but seen mentioned is synergy between Imperialistic and the GWs bonus to GG generation on your own territory.
 
Well, Imperialistic has its uses, but I fail to see its efficiency compared to Cha. I dare to say that Imperialistic is even weaker than Protective, 'cause the last one, properly leveraged can boost trade, espionage and ensure safety (supported by standard pack of axes in case of pillagers).

Settlers half price is nothing, only occasionally it can be useful when one has high hammer yield and races towards a good city spot. Around 1000BC this fun is over. So all You can get are great generals. But without solid economy war inevitably leads to sniffing other's trails. And it's hard to have good economy with big empire before BC.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. Charismatic is one of my favourites, and Protective in Sitting Bull is pure poetry. Imperialistic is crappy. Perhaps reduction in maintenance could bring the power to it, as it is - I'm not playing it. Played few times and really failed to see GG spam in action, had to use my other trait. Let's say that Vicky can do it with Financial, but that's it. Of course, If You play with Romans Your leaders can have no traits at all, You'll still be succesfull :/
 
Settlers aren't half price, you just get 1.5x hammers.

And if you chop at 95, the overflow gets scaled back down when applied to the next unit.
 
Sure, the fun might be over at 1000 BC, but once the snowball of land starts rolling it picks up along the way. The sooner you can gain an advantage over other civs the more you can benefit over time. And as to later use I'd check out an other thread in this forum, "rack 'em and pack 'em", or something along these lines for possible usage of the settler bonus into the later ADs. Don't you just hate it when you come 1-2 turns too late for the excellent city spot you planned on settling first? With an imperialistic leader using this start you can be there 6 or more turns earlier having pretty much the same amount of army.

There's also the added bonus of the GW that I forgot to mention in my opening post. Lure the enemy into your lands and finish them off there or let them attack your hill cities for absurd amounts of GG points.

Settlers aren't half price, you just get 1.5x hammers.

And if you chop at 95, the overflow gets scaled back down when applied to the next unit.

I did not know that. I guess I should've done some more research before posting and pay more attention. If what you say is true then the trait is less useful than what I made it out to be. It still has its uses though. Guess we'll be stuck chopping the settlers only.
 
another question could be - which trait does imperialistic work with the best?
Seems like Julius Ceasar (Imperialistic/Organized) would be strong in a round about way.
 
Rusten,

I regularly try Immortal maps and I can tell you Imperialistic is a great trait due to chopping giving 50% more hammers. The early advantage in Civ4 grows exponentially. On marathon speed with 2 chops, you get 180 and rest you can finish off in ((300-180=120 hammers)/(6*(1+0.5)))=14 turns. It takes 9 turns to chop anyway so it works out perfectly.

What makes those high difficulties hard is that you cannot expand as quickly as the AI. With imperialistic I can expand even faster than the AI assuming your 2nd city will also be forest rich.

Also, during ancient era, those forests have a high chance of regrowth =) I had 2 forests regrow in my capital once. =) I lost later, but oh well it was one of the nicest capitals ever.

Great generals are great too, because you will get plenty early on and you can settle them 1 per good production city allowing you get city raider II from the start.

Ok, for my HOF submission game on Immortal, I was using the Julius Ceaser. I think Imperialistic works best on overcrowded maps. On other maps, the early settler advantage is not so obvious.
 
Hello all, I have played all previous versions of Civ but have only just got Civ4, played it for the first time the other night. I have already made enquiries about the production / growth differential for settler production and the addition of civics and religion expansion. For the benefit of an absolute novice to Civ 4 could someone just explain very clearly what you mean by "chopping" with regards to settler production and can someone also explain what happen with cottages?
 
Hello all, I have played all previous versions of Civ but have only just got Civ4, played it for the first time the other night. I have already made enquiries about the production / growth differential for settler production and the addition of civics and religion expansion. For the benefit of an absolute novice to Civ 4 could someone just explain very clearly what you mean by "chopping" with regards to settler production and can someone also explain what happen with cottages?

With Bronze Working researched, you can clear the forests with your workers; workers chop the forests and the city closest gets hammers. With Imperialistic you get %50 more hammers per forest toward Settler production.
 
If food-converted-hammers applied to settlers I would like imperialistic more. It gets a bit of a bad rap, but at best it is only a mid-tier trait imo.
 
As I have said on these forums before, I like all the traits and play a mix of leaders, rarely replaying one that I won a game with.

I agree Imperialistic get's a bad rap. My view of it is similar to your's, abuse it to get alot of early settlers, I find working mines and otehr production sites work very nicely to rapidly claim good lands but will rarely use the chop unless there is one area I am in danger of losing. Imperialistic got a bump in BTS because of privateers. If you beeline atronomy and chemistry you can claim several GGs without ever going to war (Did this in my Victoria RPC). Another point on Imperialistic is defensive wars if you nail the Great Wall Wonder, as the GG points are multiplied, meaning 100% bonus and another 100% bonus on that (so 2 XP from a battle get's you 8 XPs towards a GG). It's a trait for rapid expansion and settling while increasing the production of GGs to maintain and expand that empire in a military fashion (hende why both Romans are Imperilistic).

I also agree with your comments on Ghengis Khan, he is the best equipped for War-mongering as he is agressive (free combat to melee and gunpowder). has a UB that helps mounted units, has a UU that is very mobile allowing conquest of more land quicker, and can rapidly produce GGs which can be settled for even more experienced new units. As you said, he start with good techs for expansion early.

Finally, I will say certain traits do not work well with Imperialistic producing a leader that is tough to play, at least in my experience

On the good side:

Agustus: IMP a big plus
Julius: A big plus
Suliman: A Very big plus
Victoria: A plus for the privateer aspect and getting good Redcoats
Ghengis kahn: See above
Justinian: UB/UU help alot as well as starting with Mysticism for an early religion. Target early Theocracy and alot of GGs.
Catherine: The creative trait with early settlers? Almost unfair early on, the AI I least like starting near.


One the weaker side

Charlemange: Man if it wasn't for his UB he would be the worse. Protective and Imperilistic with those starting techs are pretty week.

I am missing someone, just do not recall who.
 
Oh yeah, I am not a big fan of Joao. Expansive and a week UU/UB.
 
@madscientist

When you play one of your RPC or one of your offline all leaders marathon games ,you'll see that João ( like all leaders ) needs a tuned strategy..... basically chop settlers + chop workers + mass army growth ( unlike the João II AI does ;) ). The UU is meh ,but the UB is not....
 
@madscientist

When you play one of your RPC or one of your offline all leaders marathon games ,you'll see that João ( like all leaders ) needs a tuned strategy..... basically chop settlers + chop workers + mass army growth ( unlike the João II AI does ;) ). The UU is meh ,but the UB is not....

Gotcha! I'll remember that next time I try to play him.
 
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