The last Nazi from Nuremberg

Yeah, I never understood Nuremberg. It was neccassary, of course, and they deserved it, but was it legal? All of the crimes were prefectly legal when they were commited, so that can't be a reason. And you can't put someone one trial because they broke another country's law-which they-ve never been to-so that can't be an excuse. So how was it legal?
 
Erm, you mean the Reichstagsbrand. And it is nearly certain that van der Lubbe indeed burned it (though if he had helpers or was helped by some Nazis it isn't clear, at least Goebbels and Hitler seemed to have no knowledge about this). Also the connection with 9/11 is very questionable.
Adler

This is news to me. Goring had his cronies burn it. The fact that they may have had Van der Lubbe tag along with them is irrelevant.
 
Well the fairness of the Nuremberg trials are debatable... of course those trials were a tremendous advance and had an extremely positive impact on the world, but I wouldn't take every finding and ruling as appropriate. It was victor's justice, after all.
Hess was an oddblll no doubt, but they were entirely correct when they say any mental instability played no role in the crimes he commited. If you wanted to find someone mentally unfit, you'd have to go with Streicher first, and I'd really hate to see a human being that disgusting escape the noose.
 
Hess was an oddblll no doubt, but they were entirely correct when they say any mental instability played no role in the crimes he commited. If you wanted to find someone mentally unfit, you'd have to go with Streicher first, and I'd really hate to see a human being that disgusting escape the noose.

Yes, but what were his crimes? He helped transcribe Mein Kempf, which might be a crime against literature, but he did not take part in any of the major nazi crimes, because he was arrested in the UK when they happened.

He was convicted of "crimes against peace" which quite frankly is a lame accusation. In the Nuremberg trials he frequently talked to himself, counted his fingers and laughed for no reason. Again, I will shed no tears for a nazi like Hess, but I will say that his sentence was uncalled for and had more to do with vengeance than justice.
 
Nürnberg was the first step towards more justice. However it failed dramatically. At first the Holocaust, the crime of the 20th century, was not made the most important one, but the crimes against peace. It was constructed after the point of view of a certain US judge, who wanted to have just this as centre of a new International Law. And so the Holocaust was only a sidenote in the trials (realtively). The same can be said for conspiracy.
However here the problems begin and not only the moral ones. At first it was never forbidden by penalty to start an agression war. And although ww2 was one even the juristical definition of such a war has not yet been made in a way to be absolutely clear. That means even if there was such a law the terminus agression war is too uncertain for using. It is indeed no wonder that after Nürnberg (and Tokyo) no other trial took place with that as crime to deal with. The EU is currently working on a new definition. We'll have to see if the problems are solved then.
Anyway as I already mentioned the crimes against peace was never punished. Yes, it could be argued that crimes against humanity were also not written as penal law here they had to be aquitted, too. But as it is forbidden, even in the 3. Reich, to murder, to rob, to torture and so on you can accept that. But crimes against peace and leading an agression war was not punished in any laws of the belligerent parties. And Hans Kelsen's argumentation as being not penal law but international law is very wrong and would be a heavy mistake for every student in the very first semester.
Also it was no international court. It excluded the war crimes done by the Allies (Stalin (Finland, Iran) and Churchill (Iran, attempt at Norway) could be also seen as criminals against peace) as well as crimes against Germany or German citizens. One German journalist was a Jew and went to the Russians and told his story he saw. He was sent away because of being a German!
Also no judge could be released because of biased opinions. Also the defendant's advocates had partly massive problems to do their job right. Also the prosecution could rely on things everybody is knowing and so circumvent the need of having evidences. Because of this and others the basics of the in dubio pro reo was partly out of force. Also some witnesses were heavy under pressure by the prosecution authorities. And there was no further instance to appeal to.
These are only some points of critics. Don't get me wrong as many of them were guilty of crimes. But some were not. Jodl was later rehabilated for example (bad luck for him after his execution). However they all deserved a fair trial. And that was not granted. At least Jodl, Raeder and Dönitz were punished without real reason (IMO, Dönitz was only saved for hanging by the excellent Fleet Judge Otto Kranzbühler). And Hess was mad and mostly innocent because he had an alibi nobody could attack.
The Nurember Trials were more vengeance than justice.

Adler
 
Yes, but what were his crimes? He helped transcribe Mein Kempf, which might be a crime against literature, but he did not take part in any of the major nazi crimes, because he was arrested in the UK when they happened.
The crimes of the Nazi government by 1941 were more then enough to lock him up. Besides, based on Streicher's sentence, you could very well make a conviction on Mein Kampf alone.

In the Nuremberg trials he frequently talked to himself, counted his fingers and laughed for no reason. Again, I will shed no tears for a nazi like Hess, but I will say that his sentence was uncalled for and had more to do with vengeance than justice.
Eccentricity =/= equal insanity. If that was true I could get away with any crime I wished.
 
From what I've seen with a few of exceptions those on trial at Nuremberg got exactly what they deserved. Whether that came about by bending the legal process or not is something that doesn't especially concern me. I'd rather see some people responsible for those kind of crimes punished than none at all.
 
That is one theory that has been tossed around, but there is no evidence to support it.

No evidence? Goring admitted it!

These are the people who orchestrated crystal night, the night of the long knives and the beginning of WW2. Hitler needed a reason to ban the communists and *poof* the Reichstag is set alight by a commie. What a coincidence!
 
No evidence? Goring admitted it!
Taking Goering at his word is ill-advised. Goering said alot of things to inflate his own image. We know for a fact Goering was lying, He claimed that he himself set fire personally, but he was at Karinhall at the time.

These are the people who orchestrated crystal night, the night of the long knives and the beginning of WW2. Hitler needed a reason to ban the communists and *poof* the Reichstag is set alight by a commie. What a coincidence!
I never said they didn't exploit it, but theres no evidence in the least that there was some sort of prior conspiracy.
 
Having looked into many of the cases from Nuremberg I'm satisfied that most of those charged at the trials were guilty of what they were charged with. We can argue that others from the allies deserved to be charged too but that would never happen. I personally would rather see some criminals charged than none at all.

The point of Nuremberg to me was to show that the crimes and injustices of the Nazi regime were not the responsibility of a small number of men around Hitler, or limited to the SS. The point was to show that if you for example go along with the commando order, or publish hate filled newspapers you (willingly or otherwise) help the regime to carry out those crimes, or at the very least do nothing to hinder them.

Denouncing the use of waging agressive war as a charge at Nuremberg is in some respects valid, but that ignores the context of the way in which these agressive wars were conducted, and the intention of the Nazi regime after the war was completed. Its one thing to invade a country with the intention to annex say a small area around the border. Its quite another to launch Barbarossa with its undercurrent of a war of anhialation. You can't simply compare Barbarossa to say the invasion of Iran or a colonial war of expansion. If you want to let more of those charged escape with lighter sentences then fine, but I won't be crying for men like Hess or Kaltenbruner.

Talking about Hess by the way I'm not entirely convinced he was insane. Wiki isn't the best of sources but it does mention the following - perhaps someone can elaborate?

His last words before the tribunal were, "I have no regrets." For decades he was addressed only as prisoner number seven. Throughout the investigations prior to trial Hess claimed amnesia, insisting that he had no memory of his role in the Nazi Party. He went on to pretend not to recognise even Hermann Göring - who was as convinced as the psychiatric team that Hess had lost his mind. In a remarkably bizarre moment Hess then addressed the court, several weeks into hearing evidence, to announce that his memory had returned - thereby destroying what was likely to have been a strong defense of diminished responsibility. He later confessed to having enjoyed pulling the wool over the eyes of the investigative psychiatric team.
 
The point of Nuremberg to me was to show that the crimes and injustices of the Nazi regime were not the responsibility of a small number of men around Hitler, or limited to the SS.
Unfortunately the indictment of the SS as an organization at Nuremberg did a lot to limite that.

Talking about Hess by the way I'm not entirely convinced he was insane. Wiki isn't the best of sources but it does mention the following - perhaps someone can elaborate?
Depends on you're definition of Insane. Hess had bouts of Amnesia and was a Hypochondriac. He also was extremely eccentric. However was he insane in that he was unaware of his actions or their consequences? Certainly not.
Hess's decomposition should be taken in mind with his situation. He was on trial for life, not exactly the most harmonious of conditions. The only ones to conduct themselves with dignity were Speer, Von Papen, Von Neurath, Schacht and the military figures (including Goering). While Hess would laugh without cause, Funk would weep. Ley (IIRC, it was one of them) wrote a monologue to his dead wife. Ribentrop was an absolute wreck, the physical change of him from a few months before astounding. Frank was prone to bouts of histeria, and after a vision of him and all the defendents going to hell had a determined conversion to catholocism. Hess, evidently, dealt with it by retreating into a mental fog.
 
we actually had a re-creation of the trials at my school several years ago

the only real things worth taking note of in our recreation were that Speer was sentenced to life and Streicher got a life sentence
 
Of course, all this debate assumes that it was actually Hess present and not somebody else! One of the more interesting conspiracy theories about.
 
PH, most of them were guilty. But they still deserved a fair trial. And although I agree that it was nearly impossible to charge Stalin, Harris or Churchill for their crimes, it is still a point to crtizise.
In such a regime it is hard to stay as clean as you said. Where do you want to make the end? You can not punish the whole population. You can punish the leaders, the men who committed the crimes. But, if I understood you right, you also want to punish the men selling the "Stürmer" magazine in their shops, too. They would be in severe trouble if they did not sell it. Or what about a non political official, who enters the party only not to lose his career chances (granted he is not else inflicted into crimes)? Or even the people to join the party because of trying to fight the regime from the centre of the evil? It is a difficult area. There is nearly no black and white.
An aggression war in your opinion is a war to eradicate a whole nation with their inhabitants. Correct? But here you mix two things. At first there is the war and then there are the crimes. The first one has to be seperated from the second as being two different things. Even in a war there are laws to keep. Not to do this is another crime as starting the war.
Don't get me wrong. Of these guys I only think about three not deserving the punishments. And they are Jodl, Dönitz and Raeder. I would even charge v. Papen for treason or something else for his Preußenschlag. However if we admit that it was no crime to start a war, the others have to get this point granted, too. But because of the other crimes they did it is not changing the sentence.

Adler
 
Donitz got what he deserved. Hardcore Nazi to the end. Raedler and Jodl I could handle giving lesser sentences to.

Speer dodged the death penalty. Good PR for that boy.
 
Yeah, I thinnk thats one thing thats often overlooked in the sentencing was their position on the Regime. Doenitz, had he not been an ardant Nazi and still claiming to be Fuhrer of Germany would probably gotten as little as 5 years, maybe been aquited.
 
Yeah, I thinnk thats one thing thats often overlooked in the sentencing was their position on the Regime. Doenitz, had he not been an ardant Nazi and still claiming to be Fuhrer of Germany would probably gotten as little as 5 years, maybe been aquited.

He was ruthless though. Sacrificed his own been to gain Hitlers favor in the final weeks of the war. Essentially he was biding vs Goring to scrap up more fodder for the easternfront. Grounded sailors for the most part. Maybe not illegal but obscene.
 
PH, most of them were guilty. But they still deserved a fair trial. And although I agree that it was nearly impossible to charge Stalin, Harris or Churchill for their crimes, it is still a point to crtizise.

I don't think I'd like to have seen half of them escape on a technicality, or because no such law existe to try them under. Involvement in some events are so obviously deserving of for want of a better term punishment that you sometimes have to change or adapt the law to ensure it.

In such a regime it is hard to stay as clean as you said. Where do you want to make the end? You can not punish the whole population. You can punish the leaders, the men who committed the crimes. But, if I understood you right, you also want to punish the men selling the "Stürmer" magazine in their shops, too. They would be in severe trouble if they did not sell it.

You haven't understood me right. It is absolutely pointless taking down small change of the regime such as individual soldiers, street sellers of hate-filled newspapers and so on. You go after those responsible for writing and publishing the hate literature, the high ranking party officials and politicians who gave the orders, the generals who in many cases carried them out almost without question, the officers in the military who by their own choice carried out cold blooded crimes. Nothing is achieved by charging every single person who is loosely involved with the regime.

An aggression war in your opinion is a war to eradicate a whole nation with their inhabitants. Correct? But here you mix two things. At first there is the war and then there are the crimes. The first one has to be seperated from the second as being two different things. Even in a war there are laws to keep. Not to do this is another crime as starting the war.

No its not my opinion. I do not think what Nazi Germany planned and carried out in Barbarossa for example could be called a war of agression because it simply does not convey either the stated or underlying intention of the war, and it doesn't divide such a war from previous wars of agression. Agression to me is merely seeking to annex some territory, or force an enemy into concessions. Napoleon's invasion of Russia was a war of agression in a sense. Hitler's invasion was a war to anhialate the Russian people or at the very least a signifcant section of it, including all the communist party elements. This intention was not especially hidden from the senior officers.

Also if I am guilty of mixing the crimes and the war then it is only because Hitler himself did so on the eve of Barbarossa. Between the Commisar order, the instructions on how to deal with partizans (along with the mixing of the term partizan and Jew), the Jurisdiction order and the use of terms like "battle between two opposing world views" and "battle of anhialation" Hitler made his intentions perfectly clear. You can't divide the war from its criminal intentions any more than I can pretend Bomber Harris acted without the permission or knowledge of his superiors.

To me you don't simply go along with the planning and exection of a war like that and then afterwards turn around and claim that you did nothing worse than invade a country.

Oh and if you want to talk about laws in wartime the Jurisdiction order deprived the Russian civilians of the right to appeal, effectively giving carte-blanche to anything a German soldier wanted to do to them. Or perhaps we should talk about the commissar order instead?
 
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