The least deserving civilization?

[SilentHunter]

Well, actually, I'm Canadian, and we more or less cheated the Natives out of their land rather than killed them... And our Prime Minister gave an official apology just recently. Go Harper - now maybe Sitting Bull still stop being a dick!

But, anyways, I wasn't trying to point fingers in any negative way, and rather make Eweeze think about something... A German having respect for the French troops in the World Wars doesn't strike me as even close to insane. A German is perfectly capable of sitting there and recognize when a foreigner was fighting the good fight and tipping their hat to them for that. That's what Americans expect the world to do for their troops, so why is it such a shock when a German tips his hat to a Frenchman's war effort? Heck, shouldn't the American be joining the German in this show of respect?

Also, my Papa is German. Raised near Freiburg during WWII. My Opa died in Russia in WWII. Doesn't mean that I have any lack of respect for the French or the Russians or anything, and it also gives me a degree of sympathy for those poor saps who got drafted in any country in that war... And it also makes me wonder why someone like me, who has tried to live a relatively good life, should be made to feel guilty over events that happened some 70 years ago based on a genetic relation.

Sorry, I was unclear. I really agree with all you wrote. My comments were for Eweeze, based on what your comment. It seemed to me odd that he had such respect and knowledge for Natives history and could not understand that today France and Germany are working together. Another similar issue appears with african american: should they have left america asap after being freed or stay in the country and reach the highest level in army, administration and education?
And yes Eweeze, I think we can build friendship and cooperation over ancient hatred. I'll go further and add that for me the greatest pride of USA should be the marshall plan for Japan and Germany: if France had done that in 1918, ww2 could have been avoided.

 

[fish6]

Indian Numerals.

I know, that's why I send they were brought from India by the Arabs, hence the name Arabic numerals.

 

[EweezE]

@SilentHunter

I am not of Native American descent. I am of American/Polish descent. My grandfather was 100% Polish (both his parents born in Poland) and a P.O.W. in one of your country's awesome camps for 1.5 years. He was captured at the Battle of the Bulge. The camp he was placed in was called Stalag 13 in Badorb, Germany. It is not a forgotten hatred between our two coutries either. You can forget your keys when you leave the house, but not Germany's inhumanity during the 20th century. If it weren't for all the innocent P.O.W.s in Germany, I would have liked to have seen THE BOMB dropped on you guys, rather than Japan. Actually both countries deserved to be nuked, not just the Japs.

As for the Native American thing and me defending them... The US is a good sized country and you can't claim it if you can't defend it. So sure we stole their land, but did we not give them reservations? We did not put them in a concentration camp, slave them, and then trick them into entering a gas chamber! You, German, have a twisted sense of morals. I know you're proud of your Nazi past too, with that U-boat avatar.. How can you be proud of a country like that? If I created the game, I might have excluded the Germans as a civ.

Descending from Germany is something you should conceal until surrounded by the "right" company .

 

[AfterShafter]

Eweeze - that German inhumanity you're talking about is inhumanity committed by human beings. Those human beings - most of them, if not all of them - are dead. Remember what they did, but while you're doing it, be well aware that the Germany in existence today is composed of an entirely different body of people from those that did those crimes 70 years ago... And the Germans of today have committed no such crimes. So yes, remember their crimes, but be careful how thickly you lay the blame and on which people.

Next, a German U-Boat was a weapon of war, and a product of a country's ingenuity. It was used to do some nasty things, but that can be said about a lot of weapons of war. Would you assume an American with a nuclear sign in their avatar has it as some gleeful comment on the tens of thousands of "Nips" the Americans killed with their atom bombs? Or perhaps a comment on the Japanese American citizens who were taken from their homes and detained for months - in the United states - when hostilities broke out in the US? Someone of Russian descent with a Cossack as their avatar having it as a sign of pride over the nasty things the Russians did way back when? A U-boat is a German instrument of war - one which many countries, yours included, emulated after the fact - not a concentration camp or a gas chamber. Someone having it in their avatar is hardly anything even remotely related to "being proud of their Nazi past." Describing him as having a "twisted sense of morals" for not moping shamefully at the mention of the Nazis and shutting up about the black marks on your country's record is really uncalled for.

And thanks, I don't feel the need to hide my German heritage in the slightest. I came to terms with anything my forefathers did quite easily. They are not me, I have done nothing wrong, and anyone who tries to lay a guilt trip on me based on what someone long dead did that I had no control over is WAY off base.

I almost get the feeling you're trolling for inflamed responses. In any case, let it rest. No-one here is pro-Nazi. Silent is expressing more than due respect for the fallen of other countries, and it arguing his cases rationally. Being a proud German doesn't even remotely imply that that one is lacking a social conscience.

 

[SilentHunter]

@SilentHunter

I am not of Native American descent. I am of American/Polish descent. My grandfather was 100% Polish (both his parents born in Poland) and a P.O.W. in one of your country's awesome camps for 1.5 years. He was captured at the Battle of the Bulge. The camp he was placed in was called Stalag 13 in Badorb, Germany. It is not a forgotten hatred between our two coutries either. You can forget your keys when you leave the house, but not Germany's inhumanity during the 20th century. If it weren't for all the innocent P.O.W.s in Germany, I would have liked to have seen THE BOMB dropped on you guys, rather than Japan. Actually both countries deserved to be nuked, not just the Japs.

As for the Native American thing and me defending them... The US is a good sized country and you can't claim it if you can't defend it. So sure we stole their land, but did we not give them reservations? We did not put them in a concentration camp, slave them, and then trick them into entering a gas chamber! You, German, have a twisted sense of morals. I know you're proud of your Nazi past too, with that U-boat avatar.. How can you be proud of a country like that? If I created the game, I might have excluded the Germans as a civ.

Descending from Germany is something you should conceal until surrounded by the "right" company .

You are going way too far. I think we should stop this now: this a civ forum. As for my Nazi past, when I was born there was no more nazis since 35 years in Germany, so I have absolutly no nazi past. I could add that nobody in my familly was a nazi and that because they were active catholics, some of them ended in KZ. But that's not even relevant, everybody would say that, and that was them, not me.

"The US is a good sized country and you can't claim it if you can't defend it. So sure we stole their land, but did we not give them reservations? We did not put them in a concentration camp, slave them, and then trick them into entering a gas chamber!"

Despite your polish ascendency that should protect you from any 'german-like barbarism', you seem personnaly to have some really twisted sense of moral. The 'you can't claim it if you can't defend it' is really an interresting theory. You truly are the facist here.
Unlike you this will not lead me to hate polish or american people: you represent only yourself.

 

[EweezE]

AfterShafter has a way with difusing situations nicely. One last comment on this if I may. When you say---

Eweeze - that German inhumanity you're talking about is inhumanity committed by human beings.

That is if I consider them to be human beings.. Technically speaking they are humans, but their actions reflect them to be something other than humans. I'm not trying to stir up these inflamed responses either. It is merely coincidence, my choice of words, or perhaps the subject being discussed that stirs it up.

It's over SilentHunter. You win. 2 on 1. I'm fascist . I am going to vote for Germany now though on the poll..

 

[Saim]

i think for the same reason america was in since civ 2.

the dutch, french, germans,americans etc are around today, and can buy the game. having their own ppl in the game appeals to their ego and nationalism, hence more people will spend their money.

not many ksuhites and berbers are buying civ these days.
personally im like "the older the civ, (exctinct or not) the more deserving'.
but marketing probably won.

That does make sense. Perhaps with the rise of Chindia, Civ will become Eurocentric (if it still exists in like, a few decades)? Or perhaps it will become Sino- and Indocentric !

I agree, and I'm an american (OK i admit it, I do have a vague idea where i am, lol), and I still think the country is in decline, Asian powers like China and Japan are taking the major world scene. Of course I look at it like this

Ancient times, world focus = Middle East (Egypt, Babylon, Sumeria)

Classical/ Midevil times, world focus = Europe (Greece, Rome, HRE, England, France etc)

Industrial/Modern times, world focus = Americas (USA, USA, and, oh yeah, nearly forgot USA!!)

Future times, world focus = I think Asia (China Japan India)

1. Regarding ancient times, what about Harappa, the Vedic civilization, the Shang dynasty, the Zhou dynasty and Nubia?
2. Regarding classical times, what about Persia? Parthia? Axum? Carthage? The Mauryas? Guptas?
3. In the Middle Ages, Europe was a backwater. Probably the poorest part of Eurasia, besides Siberia. The only great empires there are the Franks and Germans (HRE). If Europe stayed at medieval level up till today, then we would only be seeing a few European civs (France wouldn't be in, neither would England, nor would the Vikings, nor would Spain, Portugal, Holland...)
4. Here I don't have as much to respond to, however Europe began the Industrial period! France, Germany, Japan, China, Britain and Russia still remain as major powers up to today.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Wow, Eweeze could not be more wrong...

 

[Ammar]

What I think is partly fueling this weird argument from EweezE is that many americans routinely want praise or feel justified and noble because of what their ancestors did.

The fact here is that you are not at all responsible for what your country did before your birth - either in a positive sense or a negative sense. So to you young americans WW II does not make you heroes and it's also nothing that germans today have to be ashamed of. Just wary.

 

[Dvalin]

While survival time is important imo in determining who deserves to be in and who not (HRE ~1000 years) some these poll choices are a bit silly...why would Spain ever be left out of Civ? Also I am as an American a little peeved at some of the comments...America is on it's way out? We may not be the #1 power for all time but we aren't just going to disappear or become something different from Americans/USA. Imagine all the complaint threads you would see if Civilization V came out and there was no American civ? Seems to me that maybe some are just unhappy with the fact that USA has demonstrated the realistic future of the world: diverse populations and countries not defined by race or language but human spirit. Despite some of the terrible propaganda in this thread, America despite it's shortcomings, is one of the most diverse/free countries with people from every other country on earth in the mix.

Really these posts about nazism and death are just unproductive and plain foolish. The Third Reich should not be implemented if this has been brought up because it is a minuscule fraction of German history, same goes for Soviet Union as you don't want USSR or Nazis fighting old German/Russian empires etc. They are too modern/short lived to fit outside of historical period scenarios.

The problem is not too many civs, it's too few. What is needed is POLAND for one! Poland in her various forms was actually quite large at one point (Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, even after Polish-Soviet war) and this justifies the ahistorical possibility of them growing larger, an important factor imo in choosing included empires.

After Poland some minors that should have been/in the future be included are Kingdom of Sweden, Kingdom of Denmark (was quite large once, if Mali is in why not Denmark), and maybe Austria/Austro-Hungary...and/or Hungary alone!

@Eweeze, Ammar and others: Your American bashing (there are no other words for it) are unjustified. If someone says something ignorant it doesn't make all their countrymen ignorant. Saying Americans feel like that is complete bunk, America is a unique entity in history and we have much to be proud of even in a short time span of ~230 years. This does not overshadow the lengthy, rich histories of most other countries (US has rich history too, research it) so what we should really be doing is getting along here as gamers/history buffs instead of having a nationalist pissing contest.

@Eweeze specifically: Why don't you turn off the lights in your room, sit there with your eyes shut and envision a plane in the air...then a large silhouette drops from the bottom and a brilliant flash...a massive cloud. Now zoom in to the ground where the shock wave is spreading and the dust is rising...can you envision a mother holding the hand of her child being vaporized and turned to bone, then dust? Why don't you think about what you write before writing it, think about the actuality of your thoughts. You throw around nuclear destruction like it's just good payback or something. It's really a sick thing to wish on people from any perspective.

 

[frog3]

I know, that's why I send they were brought from India by the Arabs, hence the name Arabic numerals.

Yeah that makes sense, let us name inventions after the people who didn't invent it. Stop trying to give more credit to something the arabs didn't invent.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

The Arabs did, however, invent algebra, the first medecine, the first astronomy, and the first chemistry, and Baghdad was the cultural center of the world in c.1200.

 

[Dvalin]

The Arabs did, however, invent algebra, the first medecine, the first astronomy, and the first chemistry, and Baghdad was the cultural center of the world in c.1200.

First medicine? You would have to be more specific as medicine in general, especially early herbalism, was not developed firstly or exclusively by Arabs.

 

[frog3]

the first medecine, the first astronomy,

I'm pretty sure China and Eygpt got to the medicine first.

And other people like Zhang Heng got to cataloging the stars far before the arabs.

 

[EweezE]

Did I not say it was over? I guess that only meant between me and SilentHunter .

@Eweeze specifically: Why don't you turn off the lights in your room, sit there with your eyes shut and envision a plane in the air...then a large silhouette drops from the bottom and a brilliant flash...a massive cloud. Now zoom in to the ground where the shock wave is spreading and the dust is rising...can you envision a mother holding the hand of her child being vaporized and turned to bone, then dust? Why don't you think about what you write before writing it, think about the actuality of your thoughts. You throw around nuclear destruction like it's just good payback or something. It's really a sick thing to wish on people from any perspective.

No, just an extremely efficient wartime weapon. I said exactly --"I would have liked to have seen THE BOMB dropped on you guys, rather than Japan. Actually both countries deserved to be nuked, not just the Japs." That is during a war mind you.. It is not like I want it dropped on someone today we aren't at war with. And not even if we are at war with someone today.. They've got to "deserve" it, because it is a devastating weapon. It was a hard decision for our president to make nuking Japan. But it ended the war didn't it? It got us an outcome faster, did it not? I don't feel sorry for the Japs. They thought attacking Pearl Harbor and allying with Germany would be cool. I guess the holocaust was ok though in your eyes... since you didn't mention that! You only have a problem with nuking people, or what? Or is the problem with me? Your rant did nothing but fuel the "nationalist pissing contest". You, Dvalin, are a terrible mediator. Leave that job to AfterShafter. I'm out.

 

[Dvalin]

Did I not say it was over? I guess that only meant between me and SilentHunter .



No, just an extremely efficient wartime weapon. I said exactly --"I would have liked to have seen THE BOMB dropped on you guys, rather than Japan. Actually both countries deserved to be nuked, not just the Japs." That is during a war mind you.. It is not like I want it dropped on someone today we aren't at war with. And not even if we are at war with someone today.. They've got to "deserve" it, because it is a devastating weapon. It was a hard decision for our president to make nuking Japan. But it ended the war didn't it? It got us an outcome faster, did it not? I don't feel sorry for the Japs. They thought attacking Pearl Harbor and allying with Germany would be cool. I guess the holocaust was ok though in your eyes... since you didn't mention that! You only have a problem with nuking people, or what? Or is the problem with me? Your rant did nothing but fuel the "nationalist pissing contest". You, Dvalin, are a terrible mediator. Leave that job to AfterShafter. I'm out.

I don't even think you are confident in your own views presented here based on your argumentation style...my "rant" uses critical thinking rather than rationalization...

Personally I don't think the bomb should have been used, and it's pretty numb of you to accuse me of being indifferent to the holocaust. Feeling sorry for the Japanese after the fact is completely irrelevant to using a terror weapon on civilians. Maybe I'm just one of those fools who don't believe in eye-for-an-eye. Yes the Japanese were cruel rampaging and murdering through China, but Americans were not the victims of that. It is my opinion that it was not primarily the bomb that brought about Japanese surrender but more the entrance of the USSR into the war and their offensive in Manchuria. A combination of both probably signaled to their leaders that further fighting would be futile and just more damaging to the country. Hitler was too stubborn of course to realize the same thing or to do anything about it. Strategic nukes are terror/murder "weapons" and in my eyes it's completely irrelevant whether or not there is a war on. Nuking people preemptively without war declaration is just plain insane so it's not even a consideration...the atomic bombs were dropped on cities inhabited by civilians. "Deserved to be nuked" is saying just that, who are those deserving of it? Civilians? 'Cause that's who died and clearly that's who you are referring to. No military target ever justifies ~100k casualties of ordinary human beings. Maybe you need to examine the coldness in your heart because it's reminiscent imo to the rationalizing attitudes of Nazi supporting Germans in WW2. Cruelty doesn't punish cruelty.

Edit: How about this, pick a German city that you think should/could have been nuked, one that wasn't already turned to ruins by carpet bombers. Maybe the specificity would open your eyes for a moment. Open Google Earth and zoom in on said city, imagine half of that city is turned to dust and twisted metal...maybe you can then better understand effects of what you're rationalizing on a more personal level.

Let's say one of the creeps who hates America had their way with sick rationalizations and New York was attacked, this is what it might look like...it's a lot more personal as an American isn't it? Makes 9/11 look like a car bomb. Japanese would/did see it the same way.

and

http://www.fabiofeminofantascience.org/BONESTELL/HBONESTELL.jpg

 

[EweezE]

I don't even think you are confident in your own views presented here based on your argumentation style...my "rant" uses critical thinking rather than rationalization...

I don't even think that makes any sense. If I weren't confident then why am I back posting again... supporting them for the umpteenth time!


Why spam the topic with these nuclear explosion pictures? Everyone knows what it looks like. Those unfortunate Jap citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the leverage it took back then to bring their leader "to his knees" and surrender to the Potsdam Declaration. Not any USSR activity in Manchuria. What do you care about more, some land you've conquered (Manchuria) or your homeland (island of Japan)? Emperor Hirohito could have saved his civilians had he surrendered to the Allies when presented with the chance the 1st time. But his stupid code of the samurai . .. .. .. . and honor cost the lives of all those people. I think he even committed suicide after that. What a leader. You might want to read up on WWII. You found all those spiffy pictures sure... but did you read what they were attached to at all? They didn't know how many more bombs we had. Do you not understand that war is war? There are no rules. You should also heed that Germany strived for a nuclear weapon. It was somewhat of a "race" to produce it. We won that race and did exactly what they would have done had they won the race... Used it. I didn't choose the targets for these bombs. Take that out on the US Military not me. I probably would have chose Tokyo, but then who would sign the surrender? It's easy to look back now and say how much you are against it. And how you wouldn't have used the weapon. Do you have more wisdom than President Truman? Just be glad history went the way it did in the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

 

[Ammar]

Those unfortunate Jap citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the leverage it took back then to bring their leader "to his knees" and surrender to the Potsdam Declaration.

Suddenly they are unfortunate? I thought they deserved it?
Note that saying the bomb was necessary is very different from saying, the japanese deserved to get it dropped on them.

Do you not understand that war is war? There are no rules.

There are no rules in war? Why do you put people on trial for war crimes then?

You should also heed that Germany strived for a nuclear weapon. It was somewhat of a "race" to produce it.

Not really true. The americans honestly believed that for a while but Germany never put the same emphasis on building it and abandoned it completely quite a while before the end of the war.

We won that race and did exactly what they would have done had they won the race... Used it. I didn't choose the targets for these bombs. Take that out on the US Military not me. I probably would have chose Tokyo, but then who would sign the surrender? It's easy to look back now and say how much you are against it. And how you wouldn't have used the weapon. Do you have more wisdom than President Truman?

You are suddenly backpedalling quite a lot here. A short time ago those terrible people all deserved to get nuked. Now it's just sad necessity?

Just be glad history went the way it did in the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

Don't forget the right-wing nuts here.

 

[Dvalin]

Obviously you don't understand the point I am conveying to you. Rather you skip it entirely to use baseless insinuations ( google images ) and a fallacy (Truman)...of course you won't let useless reason get in the way of winning you an argument! I asked you what German city should have been turned to dust if you were in Truman's shoes. It is you who must think you are wiser then he, if Germany should have been nuked, right? It's always bitter, small minded people who think war, mayhem, and nuclear weapons are bargaining chips or convenient means to an end. Just so you know, I don't think Harry Truman was a very good leader most of the time. I know more than enough about WWII, you might want to read up on the Tokyo firebombing since that was your idea of a good target to nuke.

This is good leverage isn't it:

I would post more disturbing images, but I'll let your imagination wander. My point is not that the holocaust or Japanese atrocities were not horrific and deserving of punishment, it's that slaughtering and dismembering hundreds of thousands of civilians is no way to stick it to 'em or gain 'leverage' to win a war.

Let me get this straight, since the military didn't want to sacrifice a hypothetical number of soldiers to capture those responsible and hold trials ala Nuremberg, tens of thousands of families have to be liquidated? Let me guess, you would have been a big proponent of the Morgenthau Plan? If only hundreds of thousands more died! Maybe then all those evil elderly, women, and children would get what they deserve and the survivors might understand by the utter wasteland about them, that they were beaten. Yes, burning people alive and destroying entire cities full of commoners is worth it if you can prove an important point and save the lives of soldiers intended to fight.

Edit: Oh yeah, it's real brave to drop a nuke on civilians to avoid a battle

 

[EweezE]

Dvalin, I see you've called in the backup. As usual, I'll fend for myself.

Note that saying the bomb was necessary is very different from saying, the japanese deserved to get it dropped on them.

You are misunderstanding the use of deserved in this argument. Yes, the Empire of Japan (the Japanese) deserved to get it dropped on them. Because it was war and a way to end the war quickly. After refusing to surrender... they deserved to be shown that we were not playing! Deserved.

There are no rules in war? Why do you put people on trial for war crimes then?

Some people, like Sadam Hussein for instance, deserve it .

Not really true. The americans honestly believed that for a while but Germany never put the same emphasis on building it and abandoned it completely quite a while before the end of the war.

How did you know exactly when Germany abandoned their project? During the war, we had to assume that they were ahead of us... They had V2 rockets and jet fighters and . .. .. .. ..

You are suddenly backpedalling quite a lot here. A short time ago those terrible people all deserved to get nuked. Now it's just sad necessity?

Nope. They still deserved it. See above comment.



@Dvalin.
I said I'd probably of nuked both. But there were too many of our own Allied soldiers in Germany as POWs.. So I wouldn't have risked the friendly fire. People don't fight those 100 years wars of the past.. Why risk the lives of our soldiers? Let Hirohito risk the lives of his civilians... And he did. Well the US wasn't bluffing. It is his stubbornness you should be angry with if you are a Japanese sympathizer. That samurai code backfired on him .