The Liar's Non-Paradox

Chose

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The Liars Paradox is typically stated as “This sentence is false”. Trying to assign a truth value to this statement seems to result in a logical contradiction, thus the proposition doesn't appear to be true or false. Although there is no way to externally verify whether the sentence is true or false, we can still analyze the two possibilities. In doing this we find, per Wikipedia, that “If it is true, then the sentence is false, but if the sentence states that it is false, and it is false, then it must be true, and so on.” Since both cases result in contradictions we have paradox.

When discussing this sentence I have found the sentence's self-reference is often a point of contention/confusion. Many have claimed the sentence lacks content or that the self-reference isn't clear. To avoid the self-reference debate, you can construct the Liars Paradox as follows:

(1) Statement (2) is false.
(2) Statement (1) is true.

Similar to the Liars Paradox, it seems like if (1) is true, then (2) must be both true and false. While if (1) is false, then (2) is true, making (1) true. In either case, we again have an apparent contradiction, and thus the propositions don't appear to be true or false.

I believe this paradox can be resolved by accounting for all claims of a proposition, both implicit and explicit. This is simply my way of explaining the Arthur Prior resolution, which I found to be completely satisfactory and I think it should be the accepted resolution.

The idea is simply that for statement (1) to be true, it require not just that statement (2) is false but also that statement (1) is in fact true. This seems obvious, but it changes everything. The claim is that propositions, by their very nature, are implicitly claiming to be true. For example the statement “The sky is blue.” is logically equivalent as “It is true that the sky is blue” or “This statement is true, the sky is blue.” I view this as self-evident and uncontroversial, but I may just be ignorant of some of the implications. Anyways, to make this implicit claim explicit, we can reconstruct the propositions as follows:

(1) Statement (2) is false (and statement (1) is true).
(2) Statement (1) is true (and statement (2) is true).

These 'modified' propositions, but logically equivalent, can be resolved without contradictions. Lets consider the two possibilities for statement (1).

If statement (1) is true, then we know two things. Statement (2) is false, and statement (1) is true.
So what exactly is false about statement (2)? It is the fact that it is claiming that statement (2) is true, when we know that statement (2) is false. In other words, statement (2) isn't false because it's claiming that statement (1) is true - it got that part right. It's false because it's implicating claiming that statement (2) is true, when it is in fact false.

Now lets think about the case where statement (1) is false. If statement (1) is false, then it follows that it must be incorrect about one of the two things it is claiming (for example, consider the proposition “Two plus two is four and dogs are not animals.” That proposition is false, but that clearly doesn't mean every aspect of the proposition is false. It is false because dogs are in fact animals, not because two plus two isn't four). So in this case, (1) being false doesn't make (2) true. The reason (1) is false is rather because it is implicitly claiming to be true, when it is in fact false. Since (1) is false, (2) is obviously false as well, since one of its claims is that (1) is true.

This resolution maps onto the more common construction of the Paradox, “This sentence is false.” by modifying it to “It (this sentence) is true that this sentence is false.” or "This sentence is true and false." For the sentence to be true, it would need to be both true and false at the same time. This is a logical contradiction, thus the sentence is false. It would be like claiming that “X is 1 and X is 2.” You don't need to have any idea about what X is in order to know that the proposition is false since it is claiming something contradictory. Therefore, I no longer see this as a real paradox. Thoughts?
 
But that's self-referential as well, since 1 is defined in terms of 2, and 2 is defined in terms of 1. You can cleverly write it like that sure, but it remains recursive, since you're defining 1 in terms of 2, which is defined in terms of 1, which is defined in terms of 2, ...
 
Null is an acceptable result. A contradictory statement or equation simply returns nothing.
 
But that's self-referential as well, since 1 is defined in terms of 2, and 2 is defined in terms of 1. You can cleverly write it like that sure, but it remains recursive, since you're defining 1 in terms of 2, which is defined in terms of 1, which is defined in terms of 2, ...

Yeah I take your point, I just meant neither proposition directly references itself. I think having the two propositions makes things a little more clear, so you don't have to waste time debating what exactly is 'this sentence' is.

If you do think there is something fundamentally problematic with any form of self-reference I suppose the two sentence structure won't help you. To that I would just say, self-reference is fine, it's obviously even used all the time in the real world with pretty much any software application.

Null is an acceptable result. A contradictory statement or equation simply returns nothing.

Yes, my entire post was to show that the sentence is not paradoxical, but rather contradictory. Contradictory statements are not considered paradoxical.
 
Yes, my entire post was to show that the sentence is not paradoxical, but rather contradictory. Contradictory statements are not considered paradoxical.

There are some who don't see a distinction between the two, given that the literal definition of paradox includes reference to contradiction.
 
There are some who don't see a distinction between the two, given that the literal definition of paradox includes reference to contradiction.

The fact that the definition of paradox includes a reference to contradiction doesn't suggest that there is no distinction between them. The idea of a paradox is that despite apparently sound reasoning from true premises, we get a self-contradictory or logically unacceptable conclusion. So, a contradiction is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a Paradox.

To spell out my previous comment a bit, if these premises are trivially contradicting themselves, we don't have a paradox, as with the "X is 1 and X is 2." example. In this case, the conclusion is self-contradictory, but that is only because the premises are contradict themselves. With the Liar's Paradox, I think the premises are contradicting themselves as well.
 
II suppose the two sentence structure won't help you.

It's not me you have to help, the point is that you have not changed a thing. The exact same problems with the liars paradox are contained in this version of it. You're just repeating the same paradox.

To that I would just say, self-reference is fine, it's obviously even used all the time in the real world with pretty much any software application.

It's not fine in first-order logic, that's the point, that's why the liar's paradox is a paradox. It's nonsensical in the context of first-order logic, as is your version of it.
 
It's not me you have to help, the point is that you have not changed a thing. The exact same problems with the liars paradox are contained in this version of it. You're just repeating the same paradox.

I actually have changed something and I gave you a reason why I think the change is still useful. I already granted your point that I didn't change the self-referential part, I just made it indirect. The proper context for the quote you grabbed was "If you do think there is something fundamentally problematic with any form of self-reference I suppose the two sentence structure won't help you.", which is in completely agreement to everything you said.

It's not fine in first-order logic, that's the point, that's why the liar's paradox is a paradox. It's nonsensical in the context of first-order logic, as is your version of it.

It is simply impossible to construct the paradox using first-order logic, and that isn't why it is a paradox, as there are many non-paradoxical sentences that cannot be constructed using first-order logic.
 
But the initial paradox relies on the paradox being constructed in a first-order logic context. It's fine to use another context, if you want to do that, but you first have to say what it is. And that wouldn't make sense either, because you then couldn't compare it to the liar's paradox.
 
@Chose

Your argument still has a paradoxical result because it allows sentence 1 to be true or false with no inconsistency. You haven't given us a system that unambiguously gives us the truth value of the sentences.
 
But the initial paradox relies on the paradox being constructed in a first-order logic context. It's fine to use another context, if you want to do that, but you first have to say what it is. And that wouldn't make sense either, because you then couldn't compare it to the liar's paradox.

I don't think the paradox relies on it being constructed in first-order logic, could you expand on this? The paradox cannot be constructed in first order logic, so how could it rely on it? I haven't changed the paradox at all, it is as I described and does not fit into first-order logic.

Your argument still has a paradoxical result because it allows sentence 1 to be true or false with no inconsistency. You haven't given us a system that unambiguously gives us the truth value of the sentences.

This is incorrect. Many propositions or systems of propositions may be true or false without any inconsistency. Just as two easy examples, "In the year 1800, there were 6000 tigers in Russia." I don't think we know if that is true or false, but in either case, there is no contradiction. Also, "This sentence is true." - the reason this sentence isn't a paradox is because if it is true, we have no contradiction, the sentence remains true. Additionally if it is false, we also have no contradiction, the sentence remains false. However, we still don't know whether it is true or false - there is no way to get this information.
 
I don't think the paradox relies on it being constructed in first-order logic, could you expand on this?

That's what the whole paradox is about, it's an attempt to construct a paradoxical statement using first-order logic, but it is in fact not a properly constructed statement to begin with. That's the whole deal with it, it pretends to be a properly constructed first-order logic statement, but it isn't.

First-order logic is basically the formal system that allows you to do things like

"Warpus is a poster" = true
 
That's what the whole paradox is about, it's an attempt to construct a paradoxical statement using first-order logic, but it is in fact not a properly constructed statement to begin with. That's the whole deal with it, it pretends to be a properly constructed first-order logic statement, but it isn't.

First-order logic is basically the formal system that allows you to do things like

"Warpus is a poster" = true

We are talking past each other. The paradox existed long before the idea of first order logic, so that isn't actually what the whole paradox is about. So, to be clear, what I am saying is that the sentence is expressible in any formal system of logic that allows for self-reference and having a truth predicate. These are considered by many to be assumptions outside of 'first-order' logic.

My OP was arguing that instead of "A = "A = false"" the sentence is actually "A = 'A = false and A = true'".
 
The concept of "inverse dog coins" is also neither true nor false, and is similarly useful under the same context.

Our usage of truth depends on some reference to reality and evidence, no?

What happens when you replace "this sentence is false" with "this sentence is permufulgatory"? In each case, what is one *really* saying by making the statement?
 
This is incorrect. Many propositions or systems of propositions may be true or false without any inconsistency. Just as two easy examples, "In the year 1800, there were 6000 tigers in Russia." I don't think we know if that is true or false, but in either case, there is no contradiction. Also, "This sentence is true." - the reason this sentence isn't a paradox is because if it is true, we have no contradiction, the sentence remains true. Additionally if it is false, we also have no contradiction, the sentence remains false. However, we still don't know whether it is true or false - there is no way to get this information.
We can distinguish between your two examples. While we might not know the truth value of the tigers in russia sentence there is a real world fact that dictates it's truth value. With "this sentence is true", there is no such fact. We lack any basis to determine if it's true or false. I would characterize such behavior as unexpected and bizzare enough to describe as paradoxical.

That weirdness aside i have a more serious objection. If you take the sentence "Perfection is a sexy beast" (an obviously true sentence) to mean "Perfection is a sexy beast (and this sentence is true)" there is no contradiction in saying the sentence is false because it fails the parenthetical portion. Thus you could absurdly claim that the obviously true sentence "Perfection is a sexy beast" is false.
 
Which particular system of logic should we be using to analyze these statements, if not first order logic? Just so we're on the same page

I have no opinion on this. You may use any system of logic that is able to properly express the paradox, if it is able to handle the self-reference and the truth predicate, that system should be fine. If you want this discussed more in-dept, you may read second 2 of the Standford encyclopedia entry on this topic. It highlights which logical inferences must be present as well as other non-logical ingredients to formulate the paradox.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liar-paradox/#LiarAbst

Ultimately, you need not express the paradox in a formal logical system.

We can distinguish between your two examples. While we might not know the truth value of the tigers in russia sentence there is a real world fact that dictates it's truth value. With "this sentence is true", there is no such fact. We lack any basis to determine if it's true or false. I would characterize such behavior as unexpected and bizzare enough to describe as paradoxical.

Yes, I highlighted this difference in my post. You may call it paradoxical if you wish, but that is not the generally accepted definition of a paradox, which is a contradictory conclusion from seemingly true premises with valid reasoning.

That weirdness aside i have a more serious objection. If you take the sentence "Perfection is a sexy beast" (an obviously true sentence) to mean "Perfection is a sexy beast (and this sentence is true)" there is no contradiction in saying the sentence is false because it fails the parenthetical portion. Thus you could absurdly claim that the obviously true sentence "Perfection is a sexy beast" is false.

Failure to arrive at a contradiction if the sentence is false is not grounds for claiming the sentence is false. Many true propositions have this property.
 
Failure to arrive at a contradiction if the sentence is false is not grounds for claiming the sentence is false. Many true propositions have this property.
How do you demonstrate the sentence "Perfection is a sexy beast" is true under your system?
 
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