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The Liberalism Beeline

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by madscientist, Dec 2, 2008.

  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Nat 1st, you only get Nat as trade bait.

    Nat off lib, you get both as trade bait, and lib can be bulbed. It's a pretty viable choice if you have marble and the lib race is yours, but you don't have time for other things.

    Particularly if you have a gunpowder UU or want cuirassers ASAP or something, nat for the taj and drafting makes a lot of sense.

    Also, IIRC it is more expensive than lib, actually. Unless you clear the pre-reqs for astro, steel, democracy, or something like sci meth/bio, it's going to be the highest-beaker tech you can take.
     
  2. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    All my comments are based on playing against the computer AIs. I profess not expertise in human vs. human games as I have never played one in CIV.

    I already made arguments for nationalism (and reasons to take other techs) but a few more

    1) It's more expensive than liberalism. Based on marathon beaker costs: arround 6900 for liberalisn and 8500 for liberalism.

    2) By taking nationalism with liberalism you are unlocking 3 civics with 3 more 2 techs away (consitution and democracy).

    3) You need nationalism for constitution, but if you can nab nationalism from a trade prior to finishing liberalism then by all means take it!

    4) Nationalism combined with the cheap music get's you alot closer to military tradition and some serious "Ownage". Alot depends on what you need, trade overseas (astronomy) or a powerful land-based military (chemistry) or a nice mix (Nationalism).

    A few more comments about what I see as the problem with "waiting" on liberalism:

    You can miss out on a lot of backfilling by holding education and liberalism in trades.

    You lose the advantage of powerful economical techs in FR and FS which boost beakers. If you hold liberalism for 3 more techs to get something like democracy or steel, you are missing out on a lot of turns that add 2 commerce per town (assuming you have a larger empire with cottages) plus an extra 10% to the overall beaker output (and extra happiness). Pennywise or pound foolish, do you REALLY need that high beaker tech for free if you establish a very strong commercial empire alot faster than the AI.

    DO not underestimate the AI at higher levels. They can spread arround education real fast and they build beakers in cities to speed along that liberalism race if they are close.

    Once again, this article is for close liberalism races and is meant as a strategy article.
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Don't get me wrong, i don't think nationalism is a good target unless you plan to use nationhood soonish(rifles maybe?) and want to build Taj. If you want representation constitution is a better target and if you want currasairs military tradition is better...
     
  4. Corneh

    Corneh Warlord

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    nowadays im a regular emperor player and 1/2 my games i can slingshot steel with lib. the other half of the games i will lose the game or have such a weird starting position/diplomatic situation that another approach is needed (think shaka + khan as neighbors) or the 8 floodplain start location where cottages are prefered above spec's

    i play mainly SE games so none of the liberalism/constitution/democracy civics appeal to me very much and i ussually want to stay pacifism a bit longer for obvious friendly relations with civ'sin the same religion + extra GP's

    *note
    i usually aim to get the pyramids because SE is my prefered way of playing. if i miss it, i will aim for the civ that build it and warmonger my way into capturing it. if i miss it i can still easily trade to constitution for chemistry

    my tech goes get the worker techs writing -> east -> currency -> col -> civil services (up to here i trade everything around for any techs i miss which can net me everything up to machinery) -> paper -> edu -> lib till 1 turn off researching it.

    Now most Ai's will have gunpowder/machinery/engineering and only some will have paper i trade edu for all these techs and research chemistry with deficient research (u always get money trading edu for these techs). After this finish lib -> steel

    90% of the times I will still win the lib race this way, AI's wont change theyre research to lib after they get edu and will finish they're current research project first.

    **getting cannons this early is such a big military advantage. it will be cannons + musket/maces vs muskets which will get me such a great military advanatage that i will get a early dom victory.

    *** i agree with the poster above getting natiolism with lib feels like getting losing the lib race anyway
     
  5. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Good post, and I agree on your strategy for steel. This involves quite a bit of Skill (diplomacy, trading, SE etc...) which the average or newer player may find challenging. Remember the origional intent was how to win a close liberalism race and if your taking Steel after teching liberalism to 1 turn you don't need my help.


    Also if you are running cottages, you want free speech sooner than later although I understand your point of the nationalism/constitution/democracy civics if running a SE.

    One question or comment, there is a point where another GS can bulb chemistry, when exactly is that and what needs to be delayed (to avoid the printing press/scientific method bulb?). With teh SE you have loads of GSs so you could bulb through printing press and chemistry just as fast to steel. I think Sci Method requires astronomy or chemistry.


    Regarding taking nationalism, it certainly opens up ALOT of options hence my preference for it.

    Another point, if your running a stronge SE I would think you would look more toward Scientific Method after chemistry to open up Biology.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Why is MT better than nationalism for cuirassers? You delay lib, and the beaker values aren't that different. If you take nationalism you can build the taj while heading toward MT and probably backfill all the other things you need than MT.

    IMO things like steel, sci meth (and later such as biology), rifling (and later on that path, if you can get there), and democracy make sense as delayed lib targets...otherwise just take nationalism or if you can swing it and the map is right astronomy.
     
  7. Corneh

    Corneh Warlord

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    well ill nearly always have TGL and i hate to obsolete it, which is stupid now that i think about it as the +food from bio gives so many more specs anyway.

    I dont really know how many beakers SM is but steel is a wooping 14k beaker (marathon)

    I've had times where i could have easily researched/bulbed SM in games and then slingshotted biology, i guess i got something new to try out :lol:

    About you're other point having a decent shot at lib requires alot of diplo anyway, if you beeline straight to it u will need to trade around, or else you won't have an up to date army and get owned by shaka :rolleyes:
     
  8. Scrybe

    Scrybe Chieftain

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    Thanks for the clear guide!
     
  9. Laurwin

    Laurwin Prince

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    Heh, I took gunpowder from Liberalism in my latest game, as Mehmed. It really helped a lot since the Russians to the south of my empire declared war on me about 4 turns after.
     
  10. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    You're right! You should self - research Nationalism during a GA started from the free Great A you received from music! That way you can complete the Taj early and ensure Oxford is finished before 1000 AD and also virtually guarantee you can get Rifles or Steel/MS from Liberalism.
     
  11. Steele God

    Steele God Chieftain

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    I am playing a game on Prince with Lizzy. Got Electricity from Lib.

    When should a player on Prince get Lib? By the standards set on this forum (even for Prince) I seem to be pretty late with 1750 AD. The good news is that my nearest Rival (Shaka) is significantly behind me in the tech race.
     
  12. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Yep 1750 Ad is pretty late! All I cna say is my own dates. AT epic speed I generally get Liberalism pre-1000AD at Immortal. I know I wrote this article when I played only at Marathon but the article applies to EPIC as well, and up to Immortal.
     
  13. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    An alternative approach I sometimes take to Lib is to actually just gun for a double Astro bulb and then trade my way back in. If you avoid med (or CoL) and CS/Theo you can open up astro for bulbing with just alpha, calendar, and optics. Early caravels can often let me find the most backward AI in the game and trade my way back into the edu/philo lines.

    Essentially rather than trading the edu/philo lines for the astro one, I'm hoping to trade astro line techs for the other two and then beat the AI with a superior burst at the end (on higher levels, I'm also normally counting on the AI to be hitting econ and nat). This works extremely well if you can leverage things like a MC oracle shot, nabbing the GLH while isolated, and make good use of Cal (MoM and resources being the biggies). Abusing GLH with harbors and overseas AIs makes early astro far more powerful than early edu. If you can manage one more GS to bulb PP this is about the easiest shot for libbing Sci Meth.
     
  14. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    This is a more advanced strategy but very sound. I have done this a few times (in a few RPCs) and it works very well. The biggest issue is to have a smaller empire where you can live without courthouses.
     
  15. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    The article gives a pretty good overview. I would include that building GL without a marble resource is often not such a good idea. GL is very expensive without the resource, there's almost always a better way to use these hammers in that case. In the end GL only provides 4f (converted to 2 scientists) and some gpp for the wonder itself. Pretty good but if you focus your game you can get those gs's anyway in a food rich city. For that reason Parthenon can be even stronger if you have enough food and you're in a position to run caste system.
     
  16. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    the only thing I have to say is about delaying liberalism to get a better free tech. I used to do this all the time, now I only do it with a specialist economy. Yes, you get a free tech from liberalism, and the longer you wait, the more expensive of a tech you can get, but if you have a lot of towns in your empire and are going to switch to free speech anyway, you're probably better off grabbing liberalism as soon as you can, it can mean the difference between 5C per town and 7C...that's a 40% difference! It can often boost your entire GNP by 20% or more, thus you must factor in the lost beakers for each turn you delay liberalism. The double cultural output is certainly nice too.
     
  17. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    @Dirk1302: You are correct about the Great Library, however even without marble 2 FREE scientists get you Great Scientists faster which is key to the bee-line and also enriches the Great Scientist chances (4 food still get's an extra 2 sceintists with or without the wonder). Also the AI tends to neglect the literature path so all you need is to have the GP farm working for the GL while other cities build units/buildings, often a few forrests or mined hills are all you need. The PArthenon is a good point however you need to be careful of where you put it so as not to alter the GP pool with Great Artists, best to build it outside of the GP farm.

    @noto2: I agree 100%, a cottage based game benefits from early liberalism because of the civics especially if you take Printing Press for free. If I tend to run a Specialist based game I still try to get liberalism faster to take Nationalims and thus an earlier shot at consitution with the only exception being if I already have the pyramids (a very rare thing as I increase the difficulty level). Either way, If I went through the trouble of teching paper/education/most of liberalism I want that free tech ASAP, otherwise I woul proceed down the warring path of guilds/engineering and stomp on some leaders.
     
  18. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

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    Man people have some complex strategies for bulbing and delaying and such.

    I just click on liberalism really near the start of the game, when I get it, pop printing press, then click on Assembly Line, and win because Infantry beelined that fast are absurd (who needs cannons!). Works up to Immortal. (ok so there's diplomacy and tech trading going on too I suppose :p)

    Though I guess simply winning isn't everything, and I suppose going to war with earlier with steel wins faster?
     
  19. JackOfClubs

    JackOfClubs Warlord

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    If you want to bulb Liberalism, another good tech to avoid is Fishing. This means you don't need Sailing or Compass, which are both preferred by GS before Liberalism. Obviously, this isn't a good idea if you need the seafood resources early on, but I find I can usually wait until after Liberalism if I get an inland start. Since you are avoiding Machinery, you can't get Optics anyway.

    It can be really frustrating in a tight race to suddenly discover that you have to waste several turns researching Compass because you accidentally let an AI thow Fishing into a trade. This is especially galling if you are on a Pangaea or other land-locked map.:crazyeye:
     
  20. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    Thanks for the list by DaveMcW's DMOC. Was looking high and low for it hehe.

    Cheers!
    -Liq
     

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