The Looming Student Debt Crisis

He means those people aren't as interesting to converse with. They may not think critically about issues of the day and have interesting things to say about them.

But I think you are wrong Tim, I think that has much more to do with a person's personality than the type of education they have. You can be a very technical person and extremely interested and engaging on a number of other subjects. Conversely you can have a superb liberal arts education and not care on iota about politics, social issues, entertainment or whatever it is that you find discussing interesting.
 
Granted Tim, but I think having unlimited is cost prohibitive as with most things when you talk unlimited.
 
civvver said:
He means those people aren't as interesting to converse with. They may not think critically about issues of the day and have interesting things to say about them.

But I think you are wrong Tim, I think that has much more to do with a person's personality than the type of education they have. You can be a very technical person and extremely interested and engaging on a number of other subjects. Conversely you can have a superb liberal arts education and not care on iota about politics, social issues, entertainment or whatever it is that you find discussing interesting.
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I wasn't actually thinking quite as shallowly as "interesting to converse with."

The results of 90% of the voting public not having even a passing acquaintance with the most basic principles of economics are really obvious...and really bad. Because economics is for me what engineering is for Rah that's the example I usually come up with, but it applies equally in all fields.
 
Well that's how I interpreted "a pleasure to be around in almost all circumstances."

As far as understanding economics and such, we need to start teaching that in high school, grade school even. You shouldn't need a college degree to understand how our economy works basically.
 
civvver said:
Well that's how I interpreted "a pleasure to be around in almost all circumstances."

As far as understanding economics and such, we need to start teaching that in high school, grade school even. You shouldn't need a college degree to understand how our economy works basically.
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I sort of meant "they aren't doing something stupid that endangers the common good" there.

@rah..."unlimited" is clearly an issue...again depending on definition. If it means "hey you can hang out in academia for life, all expenses paid" then it's a disaster. If it means "everyone can participate" then I think it is vital.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
Let's say "well roundedly educated."
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Sounds more like what you're actually valuing is curiosity mixed with the humility required to constantly understand how much you do not know. I'm struggling to link this trait definitively with the institutionalized education process save for that curiosity and humility may have some positive correlations with the ability to succeed at it.

But I think you're already there too. "Educated" is a clunky word in this instance, I think. Too much contextual understanding and baggage. Knowledgeable? Capable? Dutiful? Dunno, thoughts?
 
Farm Boy said:
Sounds more like what you're actually valuing is curiosity mixed with the humility required to constantly understand how much you do not know. I'm struggling to link this trait definitively with the institutionalized education process save for that curiosity and humility may have some positive correlations with the ability to succeed at it.

But I think you're already there too. "Educated" is a clunky word in this instance, I think. Too much contextual understanding and baggage. Knowledgeable? Capable? Dutiful? Dunno, thoughts?
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I hate to go there, but I resonated on 'dutiful.' If people widely recognized that understanding the world they participate in and which provides for their survival should actually be an obligation we would all be better off.

Knowledgeable has even worse baggage, since if someone isn't they will immediately revert to "you callin' me stupid?!?"

Capable also has the same sort of baggage.

I suspect that there may not be a word that isn't clunky in one way or another, unfortunately.
 
It's something I'm still worrying on with my teeth instead of a clean bite - but I'd guess a lack of sense of obligation is one of the most insidious problems we have going on.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
@rah..."unlimited" is clearly an issue...again depending on definition. If it means "hey you can hang out in academia for life, all expenses paid" then it's a disaster. If it means "everyone can participate" then I think it is vital.
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There we can disagree. 2 examples.
1. My best friend growing up was a carpenter. A very good one that I'm proud to say taught me quite a bit for a couple of years when I worked with him bumming around the country. Any money spent on him going to college was wasted. It was not his thing. He really didn't want to go but was talked into it by some that thought every kid should go. He predictably did not finish and in all honesty gained nothing by the experience. But he was still a great carpenter and made a good living doing it.
2. The kid that doesn't pay attention in HS and puts in the minimum effort just to get by, He doesn't deserve a free ride for 4 years of subsidized living. It's a waste of resources.

But again, determining who gets the opportunity and who doesn't is fraught with the potential of abuse and favoritism. it would also be difficult to police.
Our success screening would influence my enthusiasm for saying it should be available to all QUALIFIED candidates.
The money could be better spend on other programs to assist those that were deemed not qualified.
 
That's why I said upthread, "free college" does not entail eliminating college admissions requirements in the colleges themselves. Many countries track kids into university based on their performance in secondary school. I don't disagree that each of those processes has its own issues, but I think it makes more sense to have a comprehensive system for gauging where kids might best fit after graduating high school, and direct them towards it, then basically leaving kids to figure it out themselves.
 
Not only that, but as I said before in this thread, there is a reason why the price of college in the United States is out the roof. That when a student pays for college, they are typically paying for far more than the price of the education, food, and dorm. They are paying for various athletic programs that there is a 95% chance they won't be involved with themselves. Among with a million other things. I am fine with making college free as they basically do in Europe, but European Universities don't include a bunch of meaningless luxuries that are included in American institutions.
 
The flip side of course is that American universities have a great reputation abroad and attract millions of foreign students who then subsidize education for their American peers through much higher tuition. Part of what attracts them to the US surely is the perks that American universities offer. I have no idea how built-out European and Asian universities are from the perspective of luxuries such as mega stadiums, frequent campus events, plush dorms, gym facilities, etc.

I'm also not sure how much money (as a percent of the total funding/revenue they receive) that US universities funnel into such luxuries either.
 
Athletics programs don't really account for much cost. A small liberal arts college with nothing but club sports is going to be every bit as expensive as a private university with a large athletics program. And athletics really do contribute to the sense of community, which is especially useful at a large land grant university.

The culprit here is the fact that money for college is obtainable without any regard being paid to one's future ability to pay it back. Colleges spend what they do on facilities and their endowments because they can. If colleges were put on the hook for defaulted loans as opposed to the federal government, you'd likely see the cost come down. If student loans could be discharged in bankruptcy, you'd see lenders demand more guarantees from schools that students would graduate with the ability to pay back loans.

In one sense, the easy access to money for college is good because it greatly increases access to higher education. The down sides are that they created an entire predatory industry trapping lower income people into worthless for-profit colleges that are little more than scams, and that the market for higher education is very badly distorted, allowing costs to soar for no real reason other than people are willing to keep pumping money into the system.
 
Downtown would point out that, very often, a lot of those 'wasteful programs' are actually money-makers for the university itself.

What's required on the student loan problem is actually a rebalancing of the bubble. And that can't be done without knowing what it is. The degree is over-priced and over-subsidized. Pension plans have been created that assume these trendlines. There are a whole of people that have 'bet' that the price of a degree is supposed to be at that level. And they're wrong.

Now, the Federal government can very easily write-off the debt. And they could even save that move for when they need to re-assist the economy with a stimulus package. It will not be perceived as fair however. But people always whine.

But the Federal government lowering the borrowing costs for universities again will just pump up that bubble even more. The actual price of a university education is wrong.
 
To your first sentence -
No, I'm pretty sure that athletic programs are not profitable for all but the biggest schools in sports. For everyone else they are loss leaders at best. However, I don't think they are giant money pits for most schools either. They are part of the problem however and if we're doing a paper re-write of how the system is set up across the board then they should be open to scrutiny as well.
 
If the NCAA games keep some alumni engaged in the culture surrounding the school and actually sending a check when miss perky undergrad calls every other month, in addition to ever factoring in the decision making process of prospective undergrads... then I get snarled trying to figure out what they cost and how useful they are. It does seem criminally absurd how much football coaches make when the players aren't allowed to be paid for their destroyed knees and tendons.
 
I wish I could find the link I had a couple days ago that showed which colleges actually made money and which didn't. Auburn was losing money big time. Though some or half of the big conferences were making big bucks from TV contracts, most of the 4000 colleges lose money in the athletics programs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2...tercollegiate-athletic-programs/#366acccb17af

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...79b4501e8a6_story.html?utm_term=.8ff6497b139c

Edit: Found it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sp...s/?tid=pm_sports_pop_b&utm_term=.ac016beabfff

While the SEC and Big 12 is mostly making a profit, the Big 10 is about 50/50 while ACC and Pac-12 are in the red.
 
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caketastydelish said:
They are paying for various athletic programs that there is a 95% chance they won't be involved with themselves.
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This is not true. Athletic programs are mostly supported by donations from alumni and corporate sponsorship. Very little, if any, of your tuition dollars go to athletics.
 
El_Machinae said:
The actual price of a university education is wrong.
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Yes, the costs of most other things go down due to competition, innovation
and technology etc, but the cost of university fees (in the UK) keeps rising.

And the interesting thing is that the other exception in the UK, the property
market is propped up by a government appointed central banker.

I am coming to the conclusion that the problems of both are due to too much money.
 
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