the M4A3 Sherman

[privatehudson]

I'd personally take a 76mm or Firefly version of a sherman over a Panzer IV any day of the week and twice on sundays. Both of them were available from Normandy onwards also, well before the end of the war. Besides the US had a series of fine tank destroyers mounting either the 90mm or 76mm guns. Its worth remembering that the supposed organisation of a panzer division in 1944 consisted of Panzer IVs and Panthers. Heavier tanks such as the Tiger and Tiger II were much rarer.

Oh and only the earlier Shermans were "fire traps" later models relocated the ammunition storage and provided it with additional water jackets, reducing the chance that the tank would "brew up".

 

[mr_lewington]

but by the time the sherman recieved its best upgrades were there even any point to them? the time when they most direly needed them had come and gone.

 

[nonconformist]

but by the time the sherman recieved its best upgrades were there even any point to them? the time when they most direly needed them had come and gone.

Normandy, man.

The Sherman demonstrates more the US's doctrinal inadequacies in early WWII, indeed even up to 1944, in the sense that American doctrine held that tanks were for infantry support, and that tanks were supposed to be countered using fast and powerful, but very weakly armoured dedicated tank busters like the Wolverine.
The US wised upeventually and started installing a 76mm gun on the Sherman, as well as looking mor einto heavy tanks, which was manifested in the Shemran "Jumbo", and later the Pershing.

 

[mr_lewington]

wat could the m-26 pershing go up against?

 

[nonconformist]

wat could the m-26 pershing go up against?

From memory, probqably a Panther without being horrifically outclassed.

 

[FriendlyFire]

wat could the m-26 pershing go up against?

IIRC only 154 were rushed into action. it did have the same 90mm that the hellcat had though the heavier calibur was less effective then the 17pounder due to its slower verlocity. it had much better armour which could easily shrugg of 75mm fire though.

 

[mr_lewington]

hmm, so was the tiger just unbeatable?

 

[privatehudson]

The tiger wasn't no, the King Tiger was something of a problem when deployed correctly and well supplied. Luckily for the allies the Germans rarely managed both of those.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Every play : COMBAT MISSION ?

I had six shermans and two bazooka squads facing off a Tiger, a stugIII. I set up a ambush guessing corretly where the germans would drive down. The german force being smaller then expected I allowed them to enter the killzone. But the two shermans sitting point blank behind a building missed the stupid StugIII leading at point blank range. It began reversing and was hit by a bazooka disabling it.

Now the tiger was alert to the shermans in front began moving up to engage them. Luckly for me It failed to spot the four shermans hidding flanking the road. I was able to drive two shermans behind it cutting of the tiger, one sherman worked its way point blank to the side the other was waiting for a side shot if the tiger moved up futhure.

I hit the tiger repeatly from the rear, the bazooka team from 2nd floor building hit it repeatly. At this point thou the tiger begain it slow turret turn to fire at the rear. At this point i pull the rear shermans back and opened up with the sherman point blank range (1m) from the side. It hit the damm turret and the shell bounced off. A second shot did nothing and I got the sherman behind the building again.

The situation now totally ludicous. I sent the shermans in the ambush postion to fire at it from the front. The ones at the rear also catching it in a cross fire. In the end with the tiger turret facing backwards engaging the shermans to its rear. One of the shermans finally penetrated it with a shot to the rear of the turret. Shells were still bouncing off this benhemoth when the crew finally abandoned tank and were gunned down by my waiting infantry


HISTOICALLY the allied would destroy tigers provided that the odds were sufficient in there favour. The did knock out wiitmans tiger once (disabling hit iirc) , and finally killed him with fireflys in ambush position

 

[mr_lewington]

hmm, ever played CoH?

 

[privatehudson]

That game sounds like its never heard of the allies having specialist ammunition.

 

[FriendlyFire]

That game sounds like its never heard of the allies having specialist ammunition.

Its pretty accurate including everything from tank shot traps to metalogolistic conformarty of hull armour. (One interesting fact was when using Hertzers I found that the poor metal quality was rated at 80%) Only covers 41-43 we dont get to play with "jumbos" or "fireflys". I think i was using the E3 given there shorter barrels.

Dont think they issued tungsten rounds as standard given how rare the metal was to all tank crews ?


EDIT:

Iam sure the allies would have won simply by having shermans followed by squads of engineers constantly repairing them. aka COH
unlike COH CM tracks everything in a highly accurate fashion and is probably the most realistic ww2 combat similator miles ahead of anything else on the market.

 

[privatehudson]

Ahh well 1941-43 is another matter entirely.

Dont think they issued tungsten rounds as standard given how rare the metal was to all tank crews ?

I believe they began to be issued to the British tank/anti tank crews for 6pndrs in time for D-Day and the 17pndrs by August (or in some accounts October) of 1944. From what I've seen a crew would carry between 5 and 10 rounds in theory but usually were lucky to have a couple.

On an amusing note when I was still new to wargaming I was in command of a force of 3 Fireflys defending a small hill, but spent most of the game with little to do. Towards the end a group of 4 Tigers rolled up a slope a short distance away and pleased to have a target let fly. In my first volley I hit twice, and two tigers were brewed up. The survivors replied but missed, and my second attempt picked off one of the remaining tanks with the only hit I scored.

The opponent was understandably confused as he was one of those who tend to think that German tanks were all but invincable, so he tore the stats sheet from my hand. It was then we found that I'd been reading the line for APDS ammunition rather than the normal type. The umpire merely shrugged and said that since it was late 1944 we would have had some of that ammo anyway, so the result stood.

The remaining Tiger decided that discretion was the better part of valour and hopped it.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I remmeber that some of tungsten tip rounds were issued to Britishs crusaders armed with 2pounders, the crew reported that there shells were failling to penetrate the PZIIIs as they saw the round(s) bounch off the front hull.

After it was found that the tungsten tip and head had in fact penetrated while the rest of the round bounced off the armour. Inside the tank it wrecked damage to the internal sections but it still took numerous rounds to fully kill the PzIII.

There was also the capture of Tiger by 2pounder armed churchills. With a round bouncing off the underside 88 barrel and hitting the turret ring, locking the turret in place. The german crew paniced by this bailed out and the tiger was captured.

 

[e350tb]

The AMERICAN Sherman was useless against anything the Germans produced, except maybe the Panzer III and early Panzer IVs. The BRITISH Sherman Firefly had a much better chance, with it's larger gun. The Pershing wasn't too much better then the ordinary Sherman, whilst the British Black Prince and Centrian would probably prove more then a match for a Tiger.

Wittman was killed by Brits, mind you.

The best war machine the Americans built was athe F4U Corsair. Apart from the Mustang and Jeep, everything else they built stank.

(Besides, I've tested in Faces of War that the Churchill would beat the Sherman. )

 

[Theige]

The best war machine the Americans built was athe F4U Corsair. Apart from the Mustang and Jeep, everything else they built stank.

(Besides, I've tested in Faces of War that the Churchill would beat the Sherman. )

Thats probably too harsh.

The general quality of our ships and planes was not surpassed by anyone.

We were too busy focusing on actually winning the war I guess, mop up was secondary

 

[nonconformist]

The best war machine the Americans built was athe F4U Corsair. Apart from the Mustang and Jeep, everything else they built stank.

I'd disagree on the following accounts:
-The Amtrak/Buffalo
-C-47 Skytrain
-DUKW
-LCVP
-M1 Garand
-.50 Cal H2
-Bazooka
-B17/B24/B29
etc.etc.

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

The Sherman wasn't a bad tank in itself, the problem was US armoured doctrine in the early part of the war which dictated that there was no need for heavy tanks ala KVs or Tigers. As a result the Sherman often found itself slugging with tanks above its weight class, as the Yanks didn't have a proper heavy tank to send in. As a medium/infantry support tank it was very respectable, despite a high silhouette.

Since COH has already been mentioned, the lack of US heavy tanks is pretty much the reason why the Pershing turns up in a game supposedly set in 1944. There wasn't really any other choice, unless they didn't include a heavy for the Americans at all, which of course would not have made for good marketing.

 

[nonconformist]

Since COH has already been mentioned, the lack of US heavy tanks is pretty much the reason why the Pershing turns up in a game supposedly set in 1944. There wasn't really any other choice, unless they didn't include a heavy for the Americans at all, which of course would not have made for good marketing.

Air support

 

[El Justo]

The AMERICAN Sherman was useless against anything the Germans produced, except maybe the Panzer III and early Panzer IVs. The BRITISH Sherman Firefly had a much better chance, with it's larger gun. The Pershing wasn't too much better then the ordinary Sherman, whilst the British Black Prince and Centrian would probably prove more then a match for a Tiger.

Wittman was killed by Brits, mind you.

The best war machine the Americans built was athe F4U Corsair. Apart from the Mustang and Jeep, everything else they built stank.

(Besides, I've tested in Faces of War that the Churchill would beat the Sherman. )

what about the Fletcher class DDs? and the Iowa class BBs? they can stake at least some claim to being the best ever ships of their class.

Essex class CVs and the PT boats were indespensible components of the USN as well.

the M1 rifle was also a very good piece of equipment.

the M26 Pershing's main draw back was its poor power to weight ratio. other than that, it was far superior to the Sherman in terms of armor and fire power.

you either have a terrible bias against American made equipment or you're simply ill informed.