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The Maygars and the Finns: Lost cousins

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Israelite9191 said:
The Parisian French saw the religious divide as being just the first step towards a political divide, the regions were already too independent as it was.

Woohoo!!!! 1,000 posts! :bounce: :band: :goodjob:

Well, you have to be careful about projecting modern notions of nationalism onto Ancient and Medieval history. You're talking like France as a nation simply existed already, and that's how people viewed themselves back then. That is a much later concept, which leads to distortion when you try to squeeze Medieval Europe into its mould. I think that's where I'm disagreeing with your statements. There were really two different cultures, when we talk about langue d'oil from Isle de France and langue d'oc from the south. Different speech, different history, different social structures, culture, art, identities etc... Modern notions of French identity are not really useful to try and apply to this era, IMO.

congrats on your 1000th btw ;)
 
I am not trying to imprint modern politics on the situation, but there is a political dynamic that can not be ignored. The Occitan south had been part of France (more appropriately, I guess, the Frankish Kingdom) up till this time with some interruptions. While the Occitans would have remained semi-independent in a way not seen today, they would have still been vasals of the French throne granting power to the Parisians. The Parisian French would have been most weary of loosing any source of power at this point. As you metnion, the Occitan south was particularly rich, something that would have added to the need to maintain French lordship over the south. While the nation of France may not have existedin the same way as it does today, their would still have been political dynamics involved in the religious crusade into the Occitan south.

BTW, thanks.
 
I know it's long time ago that anybody posted here. However, I'd like to try to resurect this.

My father is Hungarian and I am, too, since I have hungarian citizenship. I am very interested in this topic and I also read a lot about this. German, english and hungarian sources, so I think I am somewhat familiar with this and can add some things. First of all I'd like to link a source. I don't know how useful it is for a non-Hungarian. However, it basically says there is a relation between Hunnic and Hungarian and there are lots of similar words. Yeah, you will say "No! You bloody heretic!", well, think what you want. I am sure that there is a (distant) relationship between Finnic and Hungarian, but this doesn't mean there is no relationship between Hungarians and Huns. First off all: I read often that the word "Hungarian" comes from "Onogur" and not from "Huns". This may be partitially true, but not completely. There are sources that say that "Hungarian" is a composition of the other two words and I think that's true. This is not an evidence for a relationship between Huns and Hungarians, it can be because in earlier times people "thought" there is an relationship. Even the german word Ungar(n) doesn't excludes this as in older sources it appears as Hungar(n). I don't see how the H joined the word if it doesn't comes from Huns, at least partially. The next thing is, and now it gets interesting, that there are people that believe that the hungarian language doesn't changed much since the conquest. That it appears different if you look at old texts, they argument, could be due to problems applying the latin alphabet to the hungarian language. Before they used the latin symbols, there were an other writing, called hungarian or székely rovásírás, that fits 100% to Hungarian, even in modern times. There was even an english writer who describes Hungarian as a rock in the waves of time, meaning that it resists and doesn't change (much). So if this is true, and this is not so unlikely, you can compare it with a different ancient language like they did in my source. Furthermore there are people saying Hunnic was a turkish language. Now, some of you may know that there are 300 words that are similar between Hungarian and Finnic, but there are 1500 words similar in Turkic and Hungarian. These words are also quite old, older than the turkish occupation, so it can't come from that time. And they are main words, like "father" (hungarian: atya, turkish: ata [like Atatürk - father of the Turks]). A lot of sources mention a complete sentence that is similar in Turkish and Hungarian ("There are a lot of small apples in my pocket."). And it's not only words. The grammar is also similar. In german that kind of grammar is called agglutinierend, so I guess it "agglutinating" in english. So if Hungarian is related with Turkish and Hunnic, too, then this fits to each other. Lastly I'd like to mention something that can be found rarely, maybe because it is a rather new source. There are still Magyars living in Kazakhstan. This is simply a fact, believe it or not. They are close genetical relatives. If you want I can scan that newspaper article and post it here, but it is written in Hungarian. The kazakh Magyars also had a story, that their nation fall in to parts. One part went towards west to search a new home and promised the other part that, if they are successful, they would return one day to lead the other part to the new home. It seems like we forgot them... Nowadays the kazakh Magyars can even learn Hungarian in Kazakhstan, if they want. This reminds me of an other story. It is told that the Székelys are the remaining Huns that flet hide from the other european nations that wanted to revenge. Because they feared that they could be attacked by others, they send for reinforcements from there brothers that live in asia (or at the border region of europe and asia). Some historians claim that these brothers could have lived in... tata! Kazakhstan! And the best is that these historians have claimed that before it came out that there are Magyars in Kazakhstan (at least I read them long before I read that article). The next step would be, that the kazakh Magyars fall into two parts, one that remains in Kazakhstan and one that went to europe to help their brothers. So this all gives a logic picture to me. No one can say if it is correct that one part of the kazakh Magyars really went to help their brothers or not. However, I believe there is a relation between Huns and Hungarians. Maybe it is not like father and son, but like brothers. It's your choice to believe it or not. All I want is showing you, that there could be another explanation (that doesn't necessarily mean that there is no relation between Finns and Huns), different from what you read normally. I always found this finn-ugric thing is too dogmatic, that there supporters don't give a chance to new theories. So, if you are more open-minded now, I have reached all I want. :D

BTW: There was a question whether the Avars and the Magyars are related or not. Possibly. When the Magyars arrived in Hungary, there were still Avars. Records show, that there was no overlapping between the settlement areas of both, nor where there bigger avar or bigger magyar settlement areas next to each other. The Magyars simply fulfilled the gaps between the avar settlements, they didn't mixed. You can imagine it like a mosaic. This is why they say they may be of one ethnicity or at least of related ethnicities. However, there are historians that believe Magyars came to Hungary in two waves. The first on were the late avars, the second were Árpáds Magyars. There are even thoughts that Hungarians came in three waves and that the Huns were the first.
 
I heard that Finnish, Estonian, and Hungarian are related to the Turkic languages in the Uralic-Altaic language family.
 
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