The Mesoamerican Thread

[pokiehl]

It's about as distinct as a monastery improvement is for Armagh.
I think using the term "Labyrinth Palace", or just call it "Labyrinth", would give it a Minoan feel, based off of the popular mythological story. Not to mention that they were very large and complex structures.

A “labyrinth” UI would be ahistorical and mythological though. I can’t see Civ doing that.

 

[Patine]

A “labyrinth” UI would be ahistorical and mythological though. I can’t see Civ doing that.

As Alexander's Heteroi said, it wouldn't be THE literal Labrynth.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

A “labyrinth” UI would be ahistorical and mythological though.

Sounds like something Civ would definitely do

 

[pokiehl]

Sounds like something Civ would definitely do

Nah.

 

[Patine]

Nah.

You know better as well as we do.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

There are actually three 'Labyrinths':

1. Strictly Mythic: The maze inhabited by the Minotaur, a man-eating monster: a center-piece of the Theseus Legend

2. Historical: The warren of storage rooms in the bottom floor of the Minoan-type palaces (and also, as mentioned, in earlier palaces in Mari and Beyce Sultan on the Mainland to the east of Crete) in which, I suspect, a stranger could easily get lost, but which served to store reserves of food to be distributed to the population. That was because, apparently (remember, we can't actually read any accounts of exactly what they were doing - their Linear A script has never been translated), the State (in the form of whoever occupied the Palace) controlled the distribution of food to the population - a Free Market society it wasn't.

3. Linguistic: "Labyrinth" or Laburinthos, is a pre-Greek word whose exact original meaning is unknown. The latest theory, though, is that it may be related to a Mycenean Greek (Linear B syllabic script) word: da-pu-ri-to, which is related in some way to Caverns and libations offered in them - in other words, it may refer to a religious site underground or a ceremony performed there rather than any architectural construction. (Note that the famous Oracle at Delphi, also performed in a volcanic Cave, was performed by priestesses originally from Crete, and dates back to around 1600 BCE - Minoan Cretan times)

How the historical 'Labyrinth' storerooms at Knossos might be represented in game terms:

Suzerain bonus: Your cities are immune to food losses from Natural Disasters like Volcanic eruptions, floods, droughts, etc.

 

[GeneralZift]

Does Civ really have that many ahistorical and mythical aspects?
It seems more like the exception than the norm.

 

[Patine]

Does Civ really have that many ahistorical and mythical aspects?
It seems more like the exception than the norm.

It has - and has had - a few. A number of Civ2 leaders, or even mythologized portrayals of Dido and Gilgamesh (and, "Endiku," being the Sumerian unique unit under the Civ3 portrayal of Gilgamesh), later, the Ancient Ruins system mentioned by Boneyduck Campersong, and a few other scattered examples.

 

[pokiehl]

Does Civ really have that many ahistorical and mythical aspects?
It seems more like the exception than the norm.

You are correct. Ever since Civ 4 the series has been more serious, with the exception of mythical natural wonders and optional game modes.

I’d be really surprised to see mythical stuff represented in a city-state or civ ability.

 

[Patine]

You are correct. Ever since Civ 4 the series has been more serious, with the exception of mythical natural wonders and optional game modes.

I’d be really surprised to see mythical stuff represented in a city-state or civ ability.

And Gilgamesh, and Dido, and, "Ancient Ruins," and Zombies, and Secret Societies, and Giant Death Robots - oh, my, that's already stacking up...

 

[Patine]

And Gilgamesh, and Dido, and, "Ancient Ruins," and Zombies, and Secret Societies, and Giant Death Robots - oh, my, that's already stacking up...

Oh, oh, and Apostles dueling each other with, effectively, Sith Lightning.

 

[pokiehl]

And Gilgamesh, and Dido, and, "Ancient Ruins," and Zombies, and Secret Societies, and Giant Death Robots - oh, my, that's already stacking up...

Gilgamesh and Dido are historical figures.

Ancient ruins are in fact a thing, believe it or not!

I already called out the game mode exception, which are entirely optional and for fun.

 

[Patine]

Gilgamesh and Dido are historical figures.

Ancient ruins are in fact a thing, believe it or not!

I already called out the game mode exception, which are entirely optional and for fun.

Gilgamesh and, maybe, Dido, are historical, but very little hard information is known about them, and their portrayals are based, thoroughly, on the myths. The Ancient Ruins system implies an abundance of such, "lost, advanced civilizations," especially to be dug up with frequency in Pre-Antiquity. GDR's are not an optional mode, as has often been bemoaned.

 

[pokiehl]

Gilgamesh and, maybe, Dido, are historical, but very little hard information is known about them, and their portrayals are based, thoroughly, on the myths. The Ancient Ruins system implies an abundance of such, "lost, advanced civilizations," especially to be dug up with frequency in Pre-Antiquity. GDR's are not an optional mode, as has often been bemoaned.

Thank you for conceding the point about the game modes.

“Based on myths” wasn’t your original contention. This is goalpost moving.

Ancient ruin bonuses are an abstraction. You have no more reason to rail against that than the tribal villages. It’s just a mechanic to give you a bonus and reward exploration.

GDRs are not mythical. They’re part of the future era, which necessarily comprises things that haven’t happened yet. They’re no more out of place than anything else in the future era.

 

[Patine]

There’s nothing mythical anout

Thank you for conceding the point about the game modes.

“Based on myths” wasn’t your original contention. This is goalpost moving.

Ancient ruin bonuses are an abstraction. You have no more reason to rail against that than the tribal villages. It’s just a mechanic to give you a bonus and reward exploration.

GDRs are not mythical. They’re part of the future era, which necessarily comprises things that haven’t happened yet. They’re no more out of place than anything else in the future era.

The parts you say I didn't state from the start I in fact did. Re-read my post. No goalposts are being moved. The GDR was included for being a fanciful leap.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

A “labyrinth” UI would be ahistorical and mythological though. I can’t see Civ doing that.

I never meant I wanted the labyrinth that housed the Minotaur. If you look at post #86 by @Boris Gudenuf I was strictly talking about the second one he mentioned.

 

[pokiehl]

I never meant I wanted the labyrinth that housed the Minotaur. If you look at post #86 I was strictly talking about the second one he mentioned.

My point was that calling it a labyrinth at all would be ahistorical given that this label for the archaeological site is based off of Arthur Evans’ mistakes.

(As an aside, calling out posts by number is pretty unhelpful. I think just saying who said what or quoting directly is a better reference)

 

[Evie]

So, about them Toltecs...

(No offense guys, but if we're going to have pointless circular debates about mythologized civilizations in a Mesoamerican thread, I'd rather they actually be about Mesoamerica).

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Toltecs? Why not talk about the Purépecha?

For one thing they can have Eréndira as leader

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Or a Teotihuacano civ?