The Mongols could have conquered Europe?

After the battle of Legnica on 9 April 1241 the Mongols besieged the castle for several days (without success) and then invaded Moravia.

Marched through it, burning and pillaging in order to create a scorched-earth buffer zone between Bohemia/Western Europe and Hungary, would be a better description. I remember that the town my father comes from still has a local legend from that time, about how people allegedly saved themselves from the "Tatars".
 
Marched through it, burning and pillaging in order to create a scorched-earth buffer zone between Bohemia/Western Europe and Hungary, would be a better description.

In Poland they also just marched through it, burning and pillaging (and here & there encountering resistance of Polish forces).

But these are exact "syptoms" of what is called "invasion". So I'm not sure why you protest against using this word.

in order to create a scorched-earth buffer zone between Bohemia/Western Europe and Hungary

Rather to keep the Bohemian army busy and prevent it from helping Hungary. But they avoided pitched battle (and so did the Bohemians since the moment when they received info about the Legnica defeat) as their army was already heavily depleted after battles in Poland, including Legnica.

I remember that the town my father comes from still has a local legend from that time, about how people allegedly saved themselves from the "Tatars".

In Wroclaw people saved themselves by escaping to the fortified island of Ostrów Tumski - aka "Cathedral Island" - located on the Odra river.

This is a fact.

Apart from this fact there are some legends regarding that event. How the commander of the defence of Ostrow Tumski (Abbot Czesław) resurrected a child killed by Mongol warriors from the dead - for example. Or how the same Abbot Czesław hurled magical balls of fire into Mongol warriors. Etc., etc.
 
In Poland they also just marched through it, burning and pillaging (and here & there encountering resistance of Polish forces).

But these are exact "syptoms" of what is called "invasion". So I'm not sure why you protest against using this word.

I don't protest per se, it's just that "invasion" connotes something more... substantial. Never mind.

Rather to keep the Bohemian army busy and prevent it from helping Hungary. But they avoided pitched battle (and so did the Bohemians since the moment when they received info about the Legnica defeat) as their army was already heavily depleted after battles in Poland, including Legnica.

Mongols knew medieval European armies lived off the land, and so burning crops was actually a good strategy how to keep Hungary isolated as the relief armies would have to march through areas where they'd have little in the way of supplies.

Apart from this fact there are some legends regarding that event. How the commander of the defence of Ostrow Tumski (Abbot Czesław) resurrected a child killed by Mongol warriors from the dead - for example. Or how the same Abbot Czesław hurled magical balls of fire into Mongol warriors. Etc., etc.

Something like that, yes. (Well, without the fireballs. Czechs generally prefer non-magic plot devices ;) )

But this actually illustrates how difficult it would be for the Mongols to forcibly subdue Europe. People usually fled to the hills, forests, and fortified strongpoints, and had no intention of surrendering quickly, especially not to bloody pagans from hell (in their reckoning).
 
Minority of population lived in large city centers both in the West and in the East. Comparing population of major cities is thus pointless since majority.
It's not pointless, if you read the message I was answering to.
Large cities can be used as approximate indicator of population - if you have better data, just give it.

You do not remember correctly
Some sources (namely, Rashid-ad-din) claim that Mongke and Guyuk forces were recalled and returned back in 1241, during European campaign. Batu and Subudai continued invasion of Europe on their own.
 
red elk said:
Large cities can be used as approximate indicator of population - if you have better data, just give it.

No they cannot.

Density of urban network (how many towns per - for example - 1000 km2) is a better indicator of population of the countryside than size of towns. Towns were output markets for the countryside (and inversely) - dense urban network indicated populous countryside. Size of towns was a secondary thing.

Even today large cities cannot be used as approximate indicator of overall population density.

In 1350 Rus had average population density of 2 people per 1 km2 (of course there were huge regional fluctuations*).

By comparison Italy & France in 1350 had average population density of 28 / km2 (regional fluctuations were smaller).

*Many regions of Rus were complete wilderness, while some other had population density of 10 / km2 or more.

Some sources (namely, Rashid-ad-din) claim that Mongke and Guyuk forces were recalled and returned back in 1241, during European campaign. Batu and Subudai continued invasion of Europe on their own.

I've read that they used 6 Tumens during the invasion of Rus & Volga Bulgaria and 6 tumens during the invasion of Hungary & Poland.

So exactly the same forces in size: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen

===========================

Winner said:
Czechs generally prefer non-magic plot devices

Medieval Czechs generally prefer magic ones. :p
 
No they cannot.

Density of urban network (how many towns per - for example - 1000 km2) is a better indicator of population of the countryside than size of towns. Towns were output markets for the countryside (and inversely) - dense urban network indicated populous countryside. Size of towns was a secondary thing.

Even today large cities cannot be used as approximate indicator of overall population density.

In 1350 Rus had average population density of 2 people per 1 km2 (of course there were huge regional fluctuations*).

By comparison Italy & France in 1350 had average population density of 28 / km2 (regional fluctuations were smaller).

*Many regions of Rus were complete wilderness, while some other had population density of 10 / km2 or more.
That would seem quite a significant factor to me.

If I recall this correctly, based on recorded town privileges (keeping markets etc.), the German lands in the High Middle Ages time period in question, contained some 4000 towns. Since city walls were a defining feature of these, we should be able to assume that — outside of more specifically dedicated fortresses and castles of various kinds — Germany alone should have contained some 4000 fortified urban centers. Most of which would of course have been rather small, with only something like 50 of them having more than 5000 inhabitants (still, a quarter of a million people inside them). The thing is rather their ubiquitousness.

Italy and southern France at least showed a distinct pattern of fortified urban centers of varying size — Milan at the very top of the food chain — surrounded the agricultural lands servicing the urban center. The thing is, the agricultural population would cluster around the fortified urban center, and they certainly would head there for protection in time of war. Virtually all farmland was thus controlled by an urban center, of varying size.
You can clearly see this in southern France, where all these medieval villages and towns cluster on ledges along the river valleys, i.e. defensible and easily fortified positions, where anybody looking to do a spot of farming on the valley floors would have to climb down from the high ground alongside it, where people lived for defensive reasons. These place are usually godawfully windy, and the choice to live there certainly weren't made for practical reasons, but entirely for defense. It's a positively paranoid mixed urban-agricultural landscape, signalling the locals' of the times conviction someone was always suspected of being out to get them.

This is an example: Saissac castle.
Saissac-030707.jpg

Saissac is just one of these small medieval towns in Languedoc, placed on a tringular outcrop of the Black Mountan range above the river valley below, where the fields lay. The greenery hides the fact that below the castle is a sheer drop. The triangle shape of the outcrop means you can only approach the village from one side. That side was protected by a wall, with towers.
Once through that you were in the village. The villagers however would be further out on the outcrop, beyond the church. You can see the tower of the church to the right in the picture. The church is an integrated defensive feature. The wall against the village contains only arrow slits, and the body of the church is positioned so that it cuts off access to the castle, with just narrow walk ways on either side between the church and sheer drops. It's de facto a second wall.
Only past the church would an attacker be able to get to grips with the castle itself, first the outer wall and then the keep. That's a single approach, up in the mountains, town wall, fortified church, outer wall, keep — four lines of defense. And that's just one small south French village. Nothing special really...:scan:
 
Since city walls were a defining feature of these

The defining feature of a town in the High Middle Ages in Western / Central Europe was rather legal status of a town and its inhabitants (distinct from legal status of a village and its inhabitants) as well as activities / professions of its inhabitants (i.e. more people whose activities were trade and craftsmanship, while fewer people whose main activity was farming - but of course people whose main activity was farming also lived in many small towns).

If any of architectural elements of a town was a defining feature of a town - it would be town market / market square, rather than walls.

Not all towns had walls or other forms of fortifications. There were also so called "open towns" - not surrounded by city walls.

the German lands in the High Middle Ages time period in question,

Question is what do they count as "German lands"?

Do they count areas of Italy under sovereignity of the Holy Roman Empire, which were not inhabited by ethnic German population though?
Do they count areas of Silesia under sovereignity of Polish Piast dukes, which had high % of ethnic German population due to Ostsiedlung?
Do they count vassal non-German states of the HRE (like Pomerania), or just the HRE itself (and possibly the state of the Teutonic Order)?

In other words - do they use mainly the political criterion or mainly the ethnic criterion? Or both?

Do you have a map showing what did they count as "German lands" in this case?
 
*Many regions of Rus were complete wilderness, while some other had population density of 10 / km2 or more.

I don't know what you mean by Rus (Kingdom of Rus/Galicia-Volhynia, former lands of Kievan Rus, or all the principalities of Ruthenia and Russia grouped up together) but this is the most important thing. Virtually all cities in the area were founded on strategic locations along trade routes. (Polotsk, Vitebsk, Orsha, Smolensk, Novgorod, Chernigov, Briansk, Kiev, Turov, Galych, Wlodzimierz, Pereyaslavl, Novgorod-Severski, Ryazan, Rostov, Vladimir, Tver, Murom, Kholm, Yaroslavl and I can go on if I had a map.)

The distances between these cities compared to Europe were great and in between them lied largely uninhabited thick forests, swamps or steppes. Not comparable to Western and Central Europe at all.
 
Anyway, according to wikipedia the Mongols killed 500,000 people in Rus, (Ruthenia and Russia combined) which accounts for 6-7% of the pre-invasion population. That means roughly 7 million people lived in all of Rus' before the Mongol invasions.
 
No they cannot.
Do you understand the point which I'm making, or as usual?
We were talking about population size, not the average population density - you would need to multiply your numbers by the territory of Rus. ~300k people only in largest cities, which constitutes small part of total population can hardly be called "very little people to fight". Not to mention other countries of Eastern Europe, Poland and Hungary.

I've read that they used 6 Tumens during the invasion of Rus & Volga Bulgaria and 6 tumens during the invasion of Hungary & Poland.
So exactly the same forces in size: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen
And I've read they suffered heavy casualties under Kiev and significant part of their forces (under command of Guyuk and Mongke) returned back to Horde mainland, after capturing it. They were recalled back by Ogedey.

So unless the Mongols had discovered a way to breed Orcs from mud...
For the Horde!
 
Do you understand the point which I'm making, or as usual?
We were talking about population size, not the average population density - you would need to multiply your numbers by the territory of Rus. ~300k people only in largest cities, which constitutes small part of total population can hardly be called "very little people to fight". Not to mention other countries of Eastern Europe, Poland and Hungary.

Yes I understand. I didn't notice that you was replying to a post that supposedly "Russian forests had very little people to fight" - which is of course not true because all of Rus had a combined population of several or maybe even a dozen or so million people, even though the average population density was small compared to Western Europe (or even to Poland & Hungary) - but it was compensated by huge territory.

And I've read they suffered heavy casualties under Kiev and significant part of their forces (under command of Guyuk and Mongke) returned back to Horde mainland, after capturing it. They were recalled back by Ogedey.

Can you quote the fragment about forces under Guyuk and Mongke being withdrawn?

Polish historian Jerzy Maroń in his book "Legnica 1241" on page 24 describes the size of the Mongol invasion force in the Spring of 1236 as 120 - 130 thousands (quoting H. Gockenjan, "Der Westfeldzug 1236 - 1242 aus mongolischen Sicht", Wurzburg 1991, p. 38) and on page 26 he describes the size of the Mongol invasion force after capturing Kiev - in early 1241 - as 60 thousands (quoting once again H. Gockenjan, "Der Westfeldzug 1236 - 1242 aus mongolischen Sicht", Wurzburg 1991, p. 49). However, he doesn't explain this difference (maybe Gockenjan does?).

Your claim that part of Mongol forces was withdrawn (as well as casualties between Spring 1236 and Winter 1240) could explain this difference.

However, regarding Mongol commanders / contingents - you mentioned just 4 of them (Batu, Subudai, Mongke, Guyuk), while Jerzy Maron on page 24 lists as many as 11 commanders of the Mongol invasion force in 1236 - each of them was of course leading his own contingent (and Subudai was the factual commander-in-chief of all of them, while Batu Khan was the official leader of the invasion) - apart from those 4 mentioned above (Batu, Subudai, Mongke and Guyuk), these are: Berke, Orda, Szejban (one of Batu's brothers - not sure what is the transcription to English), Kaadan, Kaydu, Baydar and Btiri.
 
Can you quote the fragment about forces under Guyuk and Mongke being withdrawn?

Academy of science, USSR.
Egorov V.L. "Historical Geography of Golden Horde in XIII-XIV centuries", Moscow, "Nauka", 1985
Chapter 2. Territory and borders of Golden Horde

"The situation with Batu forces in Europe was also complicated by Ugedey's order to recall his son Guyuk and nephew Mongke. Rashid-ad-din reports that they left Batu army and in 1241 reached Mongolia, where stayed at their hordes. Undoubtedly, they left with the soldiers from their ulus, which were temporary given to aid Batu. Such order of Kaan may indicate that on the Kurultai of 1235, European campaign beyond Rus was not planned and Batu undertook it on his own initiative. This is also confirmed by the message of Rashid-ad-din, that joint Batu army was sent for conquest of Siberia, Volga Bulgaria, Desht-i-Kipchak, Bashkiria, Rus and Cherkesia up to Derbent"

Translation is mine, original in Russian is here:
Усложнило положение войска Бату в Европе и то, что Угедей приказал вернуться из действующей армии в Монголию своему сыну Гуюку и племяннику Мунке (тюркский вариант его имени — Менгу). Рашид ад-Дин сообщает, что они покинули армию Бату и в 1241 г. пришли в Монголию, где «расположились [26] в своих ордах».6) Несомненно, что они ушли в сопровождении своих отрядов, воины которых составляли их личный улус и были лишь на время приданы в помощь Бату. Такой приказ каана может свидетельствовать о том, что на курилтае 1235 г. не планировался поход в Западную Европу и Бату предпринял его по собственной инициативе. Эту мысль подтверждает и сообщение Рашид ад-Дина о том, что объединенная армия под командованием Бату была послана для завоевания территорий Сибири, Волжской Булгарии, Дешт-и-Кипчака, Башкирии, Руси и Черкесии до Дербента.7)
http://annales.info/volga/egorov/02.htm#_ftnref6
 
Please give me detailed explanations of how they could have beaten the castles, gone without supply lines (horse blood can't last forever), stopped the Europeans from uniting under Christianity to fight the "Tartars" (sounded like Tartarus- hell), taken Venice, gone on after the Po River valley (where they should have been trapped), defeated the Holy Roman Empire, and finished off the rest of Europe. Until then I refuse to believe that they could have done so, especially since they would have killed their own horses by the command of the Pope.

I need details though.

Details? Why? The resources for a full scale invasion of Europe simply were not in place.
 
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