The most obscene state of the world

[Hygro]

I don’t think economics merit to be held at the same academic level as climate change.

I would argue that our politicians hold it at the same level.

I’d argue that they find the field of economics far more useful to help them form policy.

If economics is a near pseudoscience we really have more of an economic clergy in case of national economics and a craftsman’s core to uphold the cult at business administration level.

That’s where I’m coming from.

And I know and understand my posts are not always clear, sometimes I keep it so knowingly to spark discussion but most of the time it’s my inability to formulate thoughts in Swedish into text in English at a good level. I can always clarify later if given a chance.

Yeah this is a common conception. For all your "trust put into the discipline" the distrust is immense. Your viewpoint is mainstream. You know who helps foment this viewpoint? Those who seek to subvert the prescriptions of economics by faux economics. Literally the intersection between fraudsters and the rightwing. Also, they do bad economics work in continental Europe. Yeah, there's a lot of garbage in the field because it's a difficult field with incentives to validate certain outcomes. Economics doesn't drive policy, policy picks and chooses among dubious sources validation through econ.

That said, economics itself is a science and its findings are true and frequently relevant. But it's locked away somewhere in a tower of an offwhite color.

Here's a glimpse

 

[Ironsided]

I'm less right-wing than you and you know it. That's a cheap shot and one lacking in hitting the mark. All science is under scrutiny and I’d say economics gets away with murder compared to the natural sciences when it comes to scrutiny. Mainly because in the end that field as you duly noted makes little difference to policy but is really convenient to use as a red herring for the public.

You wanna know what else fraudsters and the right wing does – hide behind long boring YouTube videos.

 

[Hygro]

I'm not commenting on how rightwing you are. I'm commenting on where the bulk of bad economics throwing off the common perception of econ comes from: Continental Europe where money for far too long has believed to be perfectly efficient ergo recessions are real-economy problems, and right wing think tanks funded by fraudsters.

I found that video quite exciting.

 

[Zardnaar]

Could you economically educated be a little more vague please? What other problems? Does it not interest you what funding is cut or why - because 40-50% should be as far as you should go? Says who btw? Laffer? Makes you wonder if it's forbidden or just not advised to produce a personal cognitive effort I the field of economics?

Put simply if you put taxes up to high the rich are not going to just roll over and take it they well direct that money into supporting a right wing party and/or over throwing your government (ballot box or resorting to violence). Additionally it can be very hard to actually collect that money and even say 50 years ago when taxes were that high very few people actually paid that amount of tax. And in a free and fair election eventually the right will win an election and the 1st thing they will do it cut taxes.

And these days the rich can easily just move so rather than get 30% or 40% or whatever you're getting 0 %. Also what the tax rate is and what people will actually pay are two different things.

Note that I think a progressive tax structure is the way to do it but some people are claiming tax rates of 70% on high income. Putting taxes up to high can drive revenue down (because no one pays or the rich leave).

Broadly speaking around 1% are uber rich but about 30% are usually well off and they have the support of another 10% or so. You want to tax them at a rate where they ***** and moan and go and vote for a right wing party not make them flee or resort to something else.

Ima left wing liberal in USA terms but I found the economic text books at my local university interesting. The Economics 101 one discussed the pros and cons of keynesian and neo liberal economics. Its not as simple as a flat tax, low tax or tax the rich.

Also note that some on the left such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are basically as stupid as Donald Trump and full of crap. She can't even get her figures right while some of the other liberal USA politicians their policies are a lot more achievable/believable. I think she was the one going on about a 70% tax rate on the 1%ers.

You also don't need to go to 70%, even canceling Trumps tax cuts and putting taxs up a small amount would be enough to balance the budget, pay off some debt, increase spending on the military and have medicare for all. If you could get the rich to pay 40% let alone 40% that is hundreds of billions of dollars a year.

Even regulating and enforcing the finance market would do a lot. Back in the day the rich grumbled etc but paid more tax basically to head off revolution as they saw what happened in Russia, Germany etc They struck back in the 70's so its kind of like a cycle and the pendulum will swing back the other way.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Put simply if you put taxes up to high the rich are not going to just roll over and take it they well direct that money into supporting a right wing party and/or over throwing your government (ballot box or resorting to violence). Additionally it can be very hard to actually collect that money and even say 50 years ago when taxes were that high very few people actually paid that amount of tax. And in a free and fair election eventually the right will win an election and the 1st thing they will do it cut taxes.

And these days the rich can easily just move so rather than get 30% or 40% or whatever you're getting 0 %. Also what the tax rate is and what people will actually pay are two different things.

Note that I think a progressive tax structure is the way to do it but some people are claiming tax rates of 70% on high income. Putting taxes up to high can drive revenue down (because no one pays or the rich leave).

Broadly speaking around 1% are uber rich but about 30% are usually well off and they have the support of another 10% or so. You want to tax them at a rate where they ***** and moan and go and vote for a right wing party not make them flee or resort to something else.

Ima left wing liberal in USA terms but I found the economic text books at my local university interesting. The Economics 101 one discussed the pros and cons of keynesian and neo liberal economics. Its not as simple as a flat tax, low tax or tax the rich.

Also note that some on the left such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are basically as stupid as Donald Trump and full of crap. She can't even get her figures right while some of the other liberal USA politicians their policies are a lot more achievable/believable. I think she was the one going on about a 70% tax rate on the 1%ers.

You also don't need to go to 70%, even canceling Trumps tax cuts and putting taxs up a small amount would be enough to balance the budget, pay off some debt, increase spending on the military and have medicare for all. If you could get the rich to pay 40% let alone 40% that is hundreds of billions of dollars a year.

The problem here is that you assume that if tax rates are held down the rich will happilly pay them. They won't. Tax rates have dropped dramatically in the last 40 years but still the rich press for lower taxes and hide their wealth in tax havens.
On the other hand just raising tax rates won't be enough. We need to deal with the world Thatcher and Reagan created which means international action against tax havens (my own country is one of the worst for protecting micro-states whose raison d'etre is helping the rich avoid taxes) and discourage countries from competing to have the lowest taxes on corporations since in the long run that just makes all governments poorer.

 

[Hygro]

We just need to change the game to allow two choices: all persons above a certain wealth level either pay tall taxes or agree to be part of a filmed highlander against the other low tax billionaires in which fortunes are legally captured by total defeat in melee combat.

 

[Estebonrober]

Yea tax havens have to be dealt with no matter what progressive system is promoted.

I do not concede the point that the rich will just hijack my government with cash and squash the movement. They've already done that, continue to do that, and if it goes on much longer I fear violence. Part of the Trump vote is the fact that people are fed up with the rich owning our government (the swamp). Its so misguided it is completely bonkers but that is what big part of the trump electorate believe.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yea tax havens have to be dealt with no matter what progressive system is promoted.

I do not concede the point that the rich will just hijack my government with cash and squash the movement. They've already done that, continue to do that, and if it goes on much longer I fear violence. Part of the Trump vote is the fact that people are fed up with the rich owning our government (the swamp). Its so misguided it is completely bonkers but that is what big part of the trump electorate believe.

And how are you going to deal with tax havens? Invasion?

 

[Estebonrober]

And how are you going to deal with tax havens? Invasion?

Well its pretty easy for us to make rules involving serious consequences to dodging taxes. I mean this isn't that hard. You can also make international law tougher on the topic and diplomatically act as well. I'm not sure why I have to allow anyone with a Cayman Island account the luxury of doing any businesses at all in the US without changing the current dynamics of their financial positions.

Violence is not necessary. Hell part of the point of this is to avoid the violence that is coming if this robber baron age continues.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well its pretty easy for us to make rules involving serious consequences to dodging taxes. I mean this isn't that hard. You can also make international law tougher on the topic and diplomatically act as well. I'm not sure why I have to allow anyone with a Cayman Island account the luxury of doing any businesses at all in the US without changing the current dynamics of their financial positions.

Violence is not necessary. Hell part of the point of this is to avoid the violence that is coming if this robber baron age continues.

Well if I had several billion dollars and wanted to keep it I would just leave the USA jurisdiction. Rather than pay more taxes you can go and live in one of the tax havens or just find another country with lower taxes.

And that is basically the problem. And if you hit the tax havens hard they'll pull the old colonialism card, its why they were set up as tax havens in the 1st place to give them income after independence.

The other thing most people don't realise the high wages of the 40's-60's was actually an aberration, its basically the best the working class ever had it anywhere ever.

Anyone want to guess why conditions and wages were so high? Wages doubled in a very short amount of time.

Here NZ per capita was the 3rd or 4th richest nation in the world in 1913. Now we're not and Australia with 5 times the population has 10 times the GDP.

Alot of what you guys are discussing it was an issue in the 1920's as well, along with the actual gilded age in the 19th century.

The Liberals have actually undermined (inadvertantly) their own voters lol. Helps explain why Trump got elected. One problem is the liberals are to stupid/self righteous to figure this out while the current Republicans are obscene they are right on a few things just going about it wrong. The nutters on the left are so dogmatically opposed to it though they would rather lose elections over it and a few of them have probably never read an economics text book in their lives (I doubt Trump has either come to think of it).

 

[Yeekim]

Well its pretty easy for us to make rules involving serious consequences to dodging taxes. I mean this isn't that hard. You can also make international law tougher on the topic and diplomatically act as well. I'm not sure why I have to allow anyone with a Cayman Island account the luxury of doing any businesses at all in the US without changing the current dynamics of their financial positions.

LOL. Not that it shouldnt be done - it absolutely should - but "pretty easy"? LOL again. That's right up there with those "Brexit will be a walk in the park" claims. Try "not entirely impossible".

 

[AmazonQueen]

Well if I had several billion dollars and wanted to keep it I would just leave the USA jurisdiction. Rather than pay more taxes you can go and live in one of the tax havens or just find another country with lower taxes.

And that is basically the problem. And if you hit the tax havens hard they'll pull the old colonialism card, its why they were set up as tax havens in the 1st place to give them income after independence.

Those billionaires still want access to our economies, most of them still want to live in London or NY or LA, most of their assets aren't in the Cayman Islands, dealing with tax havens isn't a problem, its the political will thats lacking.

 

[AmazonQueen]

LOL. Not that it shouldnt be done - it absolutely should - but "pretty easy"? LOL again. That's right up there with those "Brexit will be a walk in the park" claims. Try "not entirely impossible".

Most of the difficulty comes from getting international action and cooperation. If its in everybodies best interests and obviously so that shouldn't be hard to do, right? Oh, wait. Climate change. Yeah not entirely impossible may be right.
Easy to do, obvious need, won't happen. This is why humanity will end up extinct.

 

[Zardnaar]

Most of the difficulty comes from getting international action and cooperation. If its in everybodies best interests and obviously so that shouldn't be hard to do, right? Oh, wait. Climate change. Yeah not entirely impossible may be right.
Easy to do, obvious need, won't happen. This is why humanity will end up extinct.

No its the same BS idiotic populism that Trump preyed on and the idiot Brexiters lied about.

This is not a new issue, to prevent capital fleeting a party here in the 90's in their 93 or 96 manifesto (where they got 11% of the voter and into parliament), wanted a 100% tax on the rich if they tried leaving.

You'll need some sort of new social contract, taxes go up but not to stupidly high levels, that money is plowed back into social programs/helping out the poor. Use a carrot and stick approach on the rich (the old mob beating down your door, preventing GFC pt II, 40 or 50% tax is better than 70%, look at passing or enforcing eminent domain type laws on the rich see Standard Oil etc).

Even if you do crank up tax to some stupidly high level they either won't pay, leave or at the worst (for them) it lasts to the next election of a right wing government.

Over here the big tax dodgers are the farmers and small business owners that run cash type businesses/services. Even then a lot of corporations will spend money on their business in order to avoid paying tax as profit not revenue is taxed.

 

[Estebonrober]

LOL. Not that it shouldnt be done - it absolutely should - but "pretty easy"? LOL again. That's right up there with those "Brexit will be a walk in the park" claims. Try "not entirely impossible".

Yea maybe not easy, I meant its doable with the right will power and the willingness to learn and adjust as things play out.

 

[Estebonrober]

No its the same BS idiotic populism that Trump preyed on and the idiot Brexiters lied about.

This is not a new issue, to prevent capital fleeting a party here in the 90's in their 93 or 96 manifesto (where they got 11% of the voter and into parliament), wanted a 100% tax on the rich if they tried leaving.

You'll need some sort of new social contract, taxes go up but not to stupidly high levels, that money is plowed back into social programs/helping out the poor. Use a carrot and stick approach on the rich (the old mob beating down your door, preventing GFC pt II, 40 or 50% tax is better than 70%, look at passing or enforcing eminent domain type laws on the rich see Standard Oil etc).

Even if you do crank up tax to some stupidly high level they either won't pay, leave or at the worst (for them) it lasts to the next election of a right wing government.

Over here the big tax dodgers are the farmers and small business owners that run cash type businesses/services. Even then a lot of corporations will spend money on their business in order to avoid paying tax as profit not revenue is taxed.

You are basically taking the position nothing can be done. If that is the case then we are doomed to repeat (well rhyme with) the social upheaval of the first half of last century. I was hoping the international class had learned that lesson last century. Well many of them have hence the debate going on at high levels around the world.

 

[innonimatu]

Not only have they not learned, they're laughing at the idea of paying (more) taxes. More would be if they actually pay any at this time, which with all the legal evasion schemes going on I doubt.
And to think that people complain of farmers and small business owners as if those were the problem...

 

[AmazonQueen]

You are basically taking the position nothing can be done. If that is the case then we are doomed to repeat (well rhyme with) the social upheaval of the first half of last century. I was hoping the international class had learned that lesson last century. Well many of them have hence the debate going on at high levels around the world.

And many of them haven't, hence the Trumps and hardline Brexiteers and the billionaires funding the far-right.
Not all conservatives are unaware of the problems. Even under our current "business friendly" government HMR&C continues to try and tighten up tax laws for corporations (my brother works in this area of tax law). Unfortunately atm the sensible right is running scared of the lunatic right so a lot less gets done than could be.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Not only have they not learned, they're laughing at the idea of paying (more) taxes. More would be if they actually pay any at this time, which with all the legal evasion schemes going on I doubt.
And to think that people complain of farmers and small business owners as if those were the problem...

For once I agree with you. Take Greece for example. Nobody paid taxes if they could avoid it. But when the Ponzi scheme collapsed the farmers and small business owners got hit, the seriously rich had moved their wealth out of Greece anyway.

 

[Estebonrober]

Not only have they not learned, they're laughing at the idea of paying (more) taxes. More would be if they actually pay any at this time, which with all the legal evasion schemes going on I doubt.
And to think that people complain of farmers and small business owners as if those were the problem...

We need to learn how to fix this right? Globally right?

They keep laughing they are going to get eaten. It was tenuous last down turn if we have another serious one there is no telling where it ends.