Good idea about Heron. After all, we can certainly afford the gold right now! I'll update orders accordingly, unless there are strong objections.
The next few turns...
- Thread starter Chamnix
- Start date
I know many of you are bored by the details of my spreadsheets, but I wanted to give a general outline of what I am thinking when I post worker suggestions and tiles to work suggestions in case I am missing something we should be building/working instead (besides, I need to write this out periodically to keep from confusing myself too much)
Athens – will be taken off warrior duty because it will no longer be able to produce a warrior and settler every 4 turns once EMP City needs the wheat every turn. It will produce settlers on turns 55, 58 (bonus 3-turn settler when going off warrior duty), 62, 66, 70.
EMP City – will produce a granary on turn 60 with a triple forest chop just before growth to size 3; will be able to produce 4-turn settlers soon afterwards.
Heron – will produce a granary on turn 58 with a forest chop. I haven’t planned beyond that because I am not sure what we are building next. I think the choices are either an extra settler or a prebuild for a harbor. A harbor enables us to trade luxuries (as soon as the other civs have harbors also), work coastal tiles for extra income, and we should have one built before we build galleys. A settler obviously gives us one more town to slow down the KISS settlement steamroller. Need team input here.
The Black Hole – will continue to produce workers roughly every 5 turns – turn 54, 59, 65, 70. The delay from 59 to 65 is because we need it to grow to size 3 to enable Virtuoso to work the wheat. The Black Hole could produce 4 turn workers at size 4, but growing would delay immediate workers by significantly more than 1 turn. Also, by the time we are ready to produce 4-turn workers, we should be very close to Republic – in Republic we can produce 4-turn workers at size 3. We could produce 3-turn workers in Republic at size 5, but it will be much faster growing then if we want to do that.
Virtuoso – will produce workers turns 58, 65, 70, and every 4 turns after that.
Red Dot (Meleagerville?) – will start with a barracks. I haven’t really planned much here yet so I’m not sure of finish date, but I think we can get a double forest chop so estimate around turn 63.
Rujikin, Jarom, & M4 Sherman - chop forests around EMP City, then improve the terrain there, then possibly start a road north?
General_W - chop Heron’s forest, then improve Meleagerville.
Chamnix - chop a forest for Meleagerville, then improve that area.
Imnzerg – irrigate the remaining flood plain near The Black Hole, then help around Meleagerville.
Enter ‘name’ here – road west/north?
Future workers – road to and improve future cities.
Workers straying from the homeland at all will need escorts. We will have barb horsemen soon so we can be attacked without even seeing them coming.
Athens – will be taken off warrior duty because it will no longer be able to produce a warrior and settler every 4 turns once EMP City needs the wheat every turn. It will produce settlers on turns 55, 58 (bonus 3-turn settler when going off warrior duty), 62, 66, 70.
EMP City – will produce a granary on turn 60 with a triple forest chop just before growth to size 3; will be able to produce 4-turn settlers soon afterwards.
Heron – will produce a granary on turn 58 with a forest chop. I haven’t planned beyond that because I am not sure what we are building next. I think the choices are either an extra settler or a prebuild for a harbor. A harbor enables us to trade luxuries (as soon as the other civs have harbors also), work coastal tiles for extra income, and we should have one built before we build galleys. A settler obviously gives us one more town to slow down the KISS settlement steamroller. Need team input here.
The Black Hole – will continue to produce workers roughly every 5 turns – turn 54, 59, 65, 70. The delay from 59 to 65 is because we need it to grow to size 3 to enable Virtuoso to work the wheat. The Black Hole could produce 4 turn workers at size 4, but growing would delay immediate workers by significantly more than 1 turn. Also, by the time we are ready to produce 4-turn workers, we should be very close to Republic – in Republic we can produce 4-turn workers at size 3. We could produce 3-turn workers in Republic at size 5, but it will be much faster growing then if we want to do that.
Virtuoso – will produce workers turns 58, 65, 70, and every 4 turns after that.
Red Dot (Meleagerville?) – will start with a barracks. I haven’t really planned much here yet so I’m not sure of finish date, but I think we can get a double forest chop so estimate around turn 63.
Rujikin, Jarom, & M4 Sherman - chop forests around EMP City, then improve the terrain there, then possibly start a road north?
General_W - chop Heron’s forest, then improve Meleagerville.
Chamnix - chop a forest for Meleagerville, then improve that area.
Imnzerg – irrigate the remaining flood plain near The Black Hole, then help around Meleagerville.
Enter ‘name’ here – road west/north?
Future workers – road to and improve future cities.
Workers straying from the homeland at all will need escorts. We will have barb horsemen soon so we can be attacked without even seeing them coming.
So if I am to understand this, as of Turn 53, we don't get any more warriors from Athens, correct?
If that is the case, we need to keep a couple warriors close to home for settler escort. The barracks won't be done for another 10 turns, so the next 4 settlers (Athens 55, 58, 62 and EMP 64) will be produced without any warriors added to the ranks. Those settlers will need escorts. The settlers that come afterwards aren't as much of a headache: Once the barracks is built, we can get a few more warriors as well as hoplites.
I think we should try and figure out from where we could build/pull another warrior or two to help the next settlers. Maybe we don't need quite so much MP? That could help us with escort duty.
Heron is a toss-up. I think a settler would be a good idea, if it can be done in not much more than 10 turns. But not if it delays building a harbor by too much. Once we have Maps I think we should prioritize getting a galley. We can grab huts/colonize the margins of the other continent. Resource grab. Put a hoplite and a worker on a galley, then get a settler ready (galley carries two, right?) KISS may be readying a harbor prebuild to be switched as soon as we gift/trade Maps. We really can't afford for them to get the jump on un regarding the other Continent.
BTW - I like the detailed spreadsheet stuff. I'm learning a lot from it, and I think it's helpful for the rest of us to get a handle on the best ways to reach oour objectives quickly.
If that is the case, we need to keep a couple warriors close to home for settler escort. The barracks won't be done for another 10 turns, so the next 4 settlers (Athens 55, 58, 62 and EMP 64) will be produced without any warriors added to the ranks. Those settlers will need escorts. The settlers that come afterwards aren't as much of a headache: Once the barracks is built, we can get a few more warriors as well as hoplites.
I think we should try and figure out from where we could build/pull another warrior or two to help the next settlers. Maybe we don't need quite so much MP? That could help us with escort duty.
Heron is a toss-up. I think a settler would be a good idea, if it can be done in not much more than 10 turns. But not if it delays building a harbor by too much. Once we have Maps I think we should prioritize getting a galley. We can grab huts/colonize the margins of the other continent. Resource grab. Put a hoplite and a worker on a galley, then get a settler ready (galley carries two, right?) KISS may be readying a harbor prebuild to be switched as soon as we gift/trade Maps. We really can't afford for them to get the jump on un regarding the other Continent.
BTW - I like the detailed spreadsheet stuff. I'm learning a lot from it, and I think it's helpful for the rest of us to get a handle on the best ways to reach oour objectives quickly.
fe3333au
Deity
I agree with building a galley, maybe 2 ... we can then load a spare warrior and get a warrior out to the Continent of the Exploding Donuts, pop some huts and map the lie of the land.
In this scenario I would think that maps would be very valuable ... and lucrative with the selling of specific explored areas
Regarding MM, I would suggest that we will wait as long as possible before giving it away to others ...
Once the Curraghs are back ... they can be upgraded to Galleys.
I absolutely support the Settlers securing resources and also creating a wall of cities to contain the KISS.
EDIT
... everyone I have spoken to have been applauding your spreadsheets 
In this scenario I would think that maps would be very valuable ... and lucrative with the selling of specific explored areas
Regarding MM, I would suggest that we will wait as long as possible before giving it away to others ...
Once the Curraghs are back ... they can be upgraded to Galleys.
I absolutely support the Settlers securing resources and also creating a wall of cities to contain the KISS.
EDIT
... Don't know who you are refering toChamnix said:
... everyone I have spoken to have been applauding your spreadsheets
Fe3333au said:
We need to talk about the mechanics of selling/swapping screenshots. How many tiles is 'standard', how to we put a Gold value on it?... etc.
MM is should be of higher value than the actual beaker cost due to the ability to trade more than simply world map or territory map.
I don't think the little rafts will be anywhere near home by the time we're ready to get to the other continent.
So if we want to get there, we need a harbor and then a galley - or are you suggesting we take a ballon ride?
peter grimes said:
Correct.
peter grimes said:
We can definitely get 1 from EMP City. After the granary is built, we need to grow a bit. I think the options were either settlers on turns 66, 71, 76, 80, etc. or a warrior on turn 63, then settlers on 68, 72, 76, 80, etc. The warrior makes the first 2 settlers a little later, but doesn’t affect the total number produced. I’m not sure where else we want to build one though.
If it comes down to a choice between MP and escorts, then escorting is clearly more important. Hopefully, we can find a way to manage both for as long as possible because it is nice to be able to keep luxury spending low.
peter grimes said:
The settler could be done in 6-8 turns depending on how we allocated the mined BGs between Heron and Meleagerville. I’m not sure exactly how much it delays the harbor by – obviously at least those 6-8 turns, but we there is also the fact that our pop is lower after the settler. I can try to figure that out later.
peter grimes said:
Just remember that every settler sent overseas is one less settler on our own continent. I agree with popping their huts and exploring with warriors, but I’m not sure we should send settlers over there until our continent is close to full.
fe3333au said:
I’m sure KISS is going to want it right away so we can exchange luxuries. I don’t know how we can deny it to them.
fe3333au said:
I don’t think Map trading is legal until Navigation – that is the C3C standard, and I don’t think it was modified for this game.
fe3333au
Deity
Regarding map trading, I didn't explain properly ... I realise that we would not be able to trade terrain screenies until World and Territory maps are tradable ... I was reinforcing the fact that later in the game when it is available, the team with the greater explorer knowledge has more potential to gain income or outcome
Regarding settling the next continent ... I would not dismiss outright the early construction of a military stronghold on the other continent ... one that is founded on a stragetic location, easily reinforcable and defendable ... reason to do it early is that at the moment both of our intercontinental neighbours are distracted by their current activities, giving us a time window where such a venture could be undertaken safely and unobserved ... By the time such a city was noticed it would be well developed and defended.
Regarding settling the next continent ... I would not dismiss outright the early construction of a military stronghold on the other continent ... one that is founded on a stragetic location, easily reinforcable and defendable ... reason to do it early is that at the moment both of our intercontinental neighbours are distracted by their current activities, giving us a time window where such a venture could be undertaken safely and unobserved ... By the time such a city was noticed it would be well developed and defended.
We have to decide what we want in Heron next. Naturally, I analyzed this by studying Meleagerville's options. I am fairly certain that 5 shields gross will yield 3 shields net in Meleagerville - the formula was very close so I set up a test where I tried to place towns the same distance and in the same order as ours in the game, and that is the result I got (hopefully I did it right). For Meleagerville, this means the barracks will be done on turn 64. After that (with the term 4 Defense Minister's approval) we can build 2 4-turn warriors (at size 2 we cannot do better than 3 net shields per turn), and then we will be a 5 spt at size 3 to build whatever military is desired.
The point of that was that at size 2, Meleagerville only gets an advantage out of 1 mined BG since the 5th shield will be corrupt and 2 out of 4 turns doesn't need any mined BGs (the warriors will go 3-3-2-2 shields) so Heron can continue to use the mined BGs for a little while.
Assuming our next 2 builds in Heron are settler and harbor (anyone have other suggestions to look at?), I think our choices are settler on 64 and harbor on 75, or harbor on 68 and settler on 72.
I think I prefer the harbor first. There are not that many short-term productive sites for the settler to go to, so I don't think the 8 turn delay in one settler is critical, whereas I would like to trade luxuries ASAP (although nobody answered my question about trade routes), and I like the harbor/settler combo being done 3 turns earlier so we can go to our next project earlier.
One other potential downside of harbor first is that if we cannot trade luxuries quickly (either because the trade route is not established or because KISS is slow to build a harbor) then Heron's growth may end up driving our luxury spending higher if we cannot afford the MP there.
The point of that was that at size 2, Meleagerville only gets an advantage out of 1 mined BG since the 5th shield will be corrupt and 2 out of 4 turns doesn't need any mined BGs (the warriors will go 3-3-2-2 shields) so Heron can continue to use the mined BGs for a little while.
Assuming our next 2 builds in Heron are settler and harbor (anyone have other suggestions to look at?), I think our choices are settler on 64 and harbor on 75, or harbor on 68 and settler on 72.
I think I prefer the harbor first. There are not that many short-term productive sites for the settler to go to, so I don't think the 8 turn delay in one settler is critical, whereas I would like to trade luxuries ASAP (although nobody answered my question about trade routes), and I like the harbor/settler combo being done 3 turns earlier so we can go to our next project earlier.
One other potential downside of harbor first is that if we cannot trade luxuries quickly (either because the trade route is not established or because KISS is slow to build a harbor) then Heron's growth may end up driving our luxury spending higher if we cannot afford the MP there.
fe3333au
Deity
I would go on harbour first ... that way it is built around the time when Map Making is discovered ... and Heron can then built the first of the new galleys ...
I'm not concerned with excess units ... It matters not if we are not researching at 100% when we hit Republic.
We will be founding cities quickly will we not?
I'm not concerned with excess units ... It matters not if we are not researching at 100% when we hit Republic.
We will be founding cities quickly will we not?
I think the advantages of being able to produce veteran galleys before anyone else in the game is outweighed by the drain in research luxuries will have on account of Heron.
As for my Official Defense Minister's Opinion [though it will be determined by the TermIV minister]: One of Meleager's 4-turn veteran warriors can go to escort duty, while one of the existing regular escorts could go on MP in Heron.
As for my Official Defense Minister's Opinion [though it will be determined by the TermIV minister]: One of Meleager's 4-turn veteran warriors can go to escort duty, while one of the existing regular escorts could go on MP in Heron.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I like getting the Harbor first also.
Bottom line: we get greater flexibility in options.
We don't know when we'll be getting republic, and even then – we don't have to switch the very turn we get it – if we need a few more turns usage out of our units before we scale back – we can wait. (Not that we should necessarily – just reminding everyone that we DO have that option)
Bottom line: we get greater flexibility in options.
We don't know when we'll be getting republic, and even then – we don't have to switch the very turn we get it – if we need a few more turns usage out of our units before we scale back – we can wait. (Not that we should necessarily – just reminding everyone that we DO have that option)
Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
Everytime I see my name is these threads it startles me...
A harbour will increase our maintanance costs but I am for it.
A harbour will increase our maintanance costs but I am for it.
We have a decision coming up in EMP City. It will be a settler factory, but it needs to get a little bigger first. We can either get settlers a little earlier as we grow or get a warrior while waiting to grow.
The choices are:
A.
63 - Warrior
68 - Settler
72 - Settler
76 - Settler
80 - Settler
or B.
66 - Settler
71 - Settler
76 - Settler
80 - Settler
I think the consensus earlier was to build the bonus warrior and delay the first 2 settlers slightly (choice A), but since we've had all that talk about disbanding military in Republic, I just want to confirm that is still the general opinion.
The choices are:
A.
63 - Warrior
68 - Settler
72 - Settler
76 - Settler
80 - Settler
or B.
66 - Settler
71 - Settler
76 - Settler
80 - Settler
I think the consensus earlier was to build the bonus warrior and delay the first 2 settlers slightly (choice A), but since we've had all that talk about disbanding military in Republic, I just want to confirm that is still the general opinion.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I say get the warriror.
As KISS is considering what to do regarding the spices - I want their military advisor to keep telling them that we are "STONG" compared to them. (even after they build a GS - it'd be cool to stay ahead of them... put just a little fear into them)
As KISS is considering what to do regarding the spices - I want their military advisor to keep telling them that we are "STONG" compared to them. (even after they build a GS - it'd be cool to stay ahead of them... put just a little fear into them)
I agree with General_W.
Especially with the bit about the military pop-head.
Especially with the bit about the military pop-head.
Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
Yeah, option A sounds good. Plus, the defence minister will like me more if I say option A.
fe3333au
Deity
I join the chorus - "Option A"
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
From the Presidential Update...
I still think this is a good plan – but maybe we should send him to the Dyes that KISS told us are still available? Just to show that we're keeping up?
Not sure if this should be discussed here or in the Domestic Thread – but this relates to Foreign and Domestic AND it needs to be decided ASAP. So here seems good.
Given what we know now – about the LUX resources – and that we're going to be in a race to get to the other continent – we may want to consider a new version of our settlement strategy.
I'll post ideas in the Grand Strategy thread on my lunch break. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Our proposed settlement strategy in the Grand Strategy thread calls for sending settler #4 (this one) to the Incense in the desert.Chamnix said:
I still think this is a good plan – but maybe we should send him to the Dyes that KISS told us are still available? Just to show that we're keeping up?
Not sure if this should be discussed here or in the Domestic Thread – but this relates to Foreign and Domestic AND it needs to be decided ASAP. So here seems good.
Given what we know now – about the LUX resources – and that we're going to be in a race to get to the other continent – we may want to consider a new version of our settlement strategy.
I'll post ideas in the Grand Strategy thread on my lunch break. Anyone else want to weigh in?
I think we should send #4 to the incense, then either 5 or 6 to the dyes. Actually, considering the travel time, 5 would be better.
Hopefully Assyrian Bane will be able to map all of this on his way home. I really felt we were showing our ignorance during that whole "Give Me Spices or Give Me Death" incident.
Hopefully Assyrian Bane will be able to map all of this on his way home. I really felt we were showing our ignorance during that whole "Give Me Spices or Give Me Death" incident.
I think we have a decision to make regarding the allocation of the mined BGs between Heron and Meleagerville over the next few turns. It looks like I was wrong regarding Meleagerville - we can get 4 net shields at size 2. I have no idea what was wrong with my test file that showed we would only get 3 net, but it is a good thing anyway.
Assuming we still want a warrior next in Meleagerville, we can do it in 3 turns. The only downside to doing that is that we delay the harbor in Heron by 1 turn. The choices are (counting turn 64 as year 0):
1. Warrior in 5 and harbor in 4 or
2. Warrior in 3 and harbor in 5.
I think I like choice 2 (1 turn delay in harbor is better than 2 turn delay in warrior), but I am not sure of all the repurcussions. I'm assuming Heron is building a settler next, and this will be delayed by 1 turn as well (everything from Heron will be 1 turn later). Heron may also end up needing additional luxuries since the settler is delayed.
Thoughts?
Assuming we still want a warrior next in Meleagerville, we can do it in 3 turns. The only downside to doing that is that we delay the harbor in Heron by 1 turn. The choices are (counting turn 64 as year 0):
1. Warrior in 5 and harbor in 4 or
2. Warrior in 3 and harbor in 5.
I think I like choice 2 (1 turn delay in harbor is better than 2 turn delay in warrior), but I am not sure of all the repurcussions. I'm assuming Heron is building a settler next, and this will be delayed by 1 turn as well (everything from Heron will be 1 turn later). Heron may also end up needing additional luxuries since the settler is delayed.
Thoughts?
