The Next World SuperPower

[andycapp]

Originally posted by redtom

3. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Commonwealth, Empire, formal colonial super-power, industrially 3rd according to the Guardian newspaper. Holds massive influence due to commonwealth, empire, armed forces second-to-non. Reasonably well off. Nukes. Officially got the best Secret service, special forces and armed forces in the world

I hate to break the news to you redtom, but the Commonwealth you suggest is part of Britain's power and influence is a collection of independent nations that are often at loggerheads with Britain over many issues.

We share a ceremonial head of state (she is 'Queen of Australia') - for the moment - this historical relic shouldn't lead you to the conclusion that Britain exercises ANY control over Australia or most of the other members of the Commonwealth of nations.

Whilst I and many other Aussies have great affection for the Brits, being a bit player in their (or any other nation's) exercise of power is not something we aspire to!

Britain is still a great nation but the term 'Great' Britain is unrealistic and harking back to the time of empire.

The debate about who has the 'best' armed forces etc is puerile and about as conclusive as trying to determine 'how long is a piece of string?'

 

[CurtSibling]

I agree with Andycapp!

We in the UK look at our imperial past as part of history.
The same way the USA regards the pioneer era.

Nowadays, we have a multi-cultural and cosmopolitan nation.
We enjoy freedom to the max and to say we exercise military
muscle to bully other nations is a load of dung,
Our military is small, but leads the world in standards of training.

Redtom, are you from the UK? If not:

Visit London or Glasgow, then you can enjoy yourself and
see what the UK has to offer! (just avoid the druggies!)

 

[John Doe]

the only superpower is in size of one's wallet, not fist.

 

[redtom]

"Sorry. I had too. There is some debate which pilots are better, but by and large the U.S. armed forces is far superior, the intelligence is more widespread, and the special forces are certainly the finest trained. Of course, I am not including your Gurkahs. They are some mean and tough fighters, and we don't have a comparitive group."

The British army occasionally trains the US Army to fight, never the other way round. The SAS and the even more secretive SBS is the greatest fighting force in the world. Whilst your special forces are being mullered by a bunch of tribesmen in Africa, are special forces fought of 4000 fanatics with 100 SAS and 200 local tribesmen. As they say in America "Go figure".

The US airforce is probably the greatest because of the technical supremacy. But is missing vertical takeover jets that proved so so succesful in the Falklands War.

Are secret service is the greatest. Ex-KGB agents say so, your CIA and NSA learns of our secret services. Go figure.

To the idiot who suggested that the Commonwealth is a union. Yes it is officially is, but this doesn't stop many countries within the Commonwealth giving unconditional support for Britain through its hard times, eg Second World War. etc. etc. Ultimately, there always going to give support to the mother country

I am from Great Britain by the way.

PS. I am not trying to be-little any of the Commonwealth nations as Aus, Canada, NZ, wouldn't be far of top.

 

[sonorakitch]

I agree with AndyCapp, it is impossible to claim one force is "better" than the other.

However, the superior military in the world is the US Armed Forces. I think you have it incorrect when you, Redtom, exclaim that U.S. troops are trained by Brits; in fact, there are joint "excercises", which are designed to cultivate coherancy between forces. Very important in terms of todays campaign.

"Whilst your special forces are being mullered by a bunch of tribesmen in Africa, "

Well, if you are referring to Somalia, you need to understand that was not a military problem, but a political one. The US forces are dispatched by our political body.

Just consider this most recent campaign. The US military has once again proven its vast superiority in both Air and Land power in Afghanistan. A conflict which was supposed to be bloody, in reviewing the Soviet situation there in the 1980's, has instead been a cakewalk, with casualties less than 30...all but 2 were "friendly fire". This is something we need to work on.

And for your info, the US already has your verticle take-off aircraft (ie. the Harrier). We buy them from the UK in small numbers, because they are very unmanuverable and slow in comparison to other aircraft, but do provide a tactical gift on certain occasions.

Intelligence is also impossible to debate; I was merely asserting that the US intelligence network is the largest, but also is not near perfect. Heck, we didn't catch 9-11.

~Chris

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by redtom

The British army occasionally trains the US Army to fight, never the other way round. The SAS and the even more secretive SBS is the greatest fighting force in the world. Whilst your special forces are being mullered by a bunch of tribesmen in Africa, are special forces fought of 4000 fanatics with 100 SAS and 200 local tribesmen. As they say in America "Go figure".

The US airforce is probably the greatest because of the technical supremacy. But is missing vertical takeover jets that proved so so succesful in the Falklands War.

Are secret service is the greatest. Ex-KGB agents say so, your CIA and NSA learns of our secret services. Go figure.

What I can't figure is why a Brit, like redtom, feels the need to indulge in arrogant chest thumping about how good the British Armed Services are - anyone with even passing knowledge of matters military knows that the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy are amongst the very best in the world.

Your boasting seems not quite British old chum - more the sort of thing one would expect from those damned colonials!

To the idiot who suggested that the Commonwealth is a union. Yes it is officially is, but this doesn't stop many countries within the Commonwealth giving unconditional support for Britain through its hard times, eg Second World War. etc. etc. Ultimately, there always going to give support to the mother country

[andycapp looks around trying to spot the "idiot" and concludes that redtom was looking in a mirror]

If you mean that the Commonwealth is a political "union" with Britain calling the shots you're wrong! Britain's vote at Commonwealth Heads of Government Meetings is worth the same as every other nations - obviously she wields a degree of influence - although less than you so confidently proclaim.

WW2 was over 50 years ago, things have changed a bit since then redtom. Even during WW2 Australia pursued an independent policy that at times clashed with Churchill. For example Australia's refusal to divert Aussie troops, returning home from North Africa for the defence of Australia, to Burma despite Churchill's attempts to over ride Australian command.

Your statement about Commonwealth nations "always going to give support to the mother country" indicates that you are still living in the 19th century and don't understand the realities of modern geo-politics!

I am from Great Britain by the way.

Oh, and I thought you were from 'Britain' - silly me.

PS. I am not trying to be-little any of the Commonwealth nations as Aus, Canada, NZ, wouldn't be far of top.

Very decent of you redtom! Since 'Britain' is a Commonwealth nation (eg part of the Commonwealth of Nations) that would be quite foolish of you.

 

[knowltok]

On harriers: The reason the Brits use harriers is that they don't have full sized carriers. The US Marines use harriers on their Assualt carriers, but the US military would never consider using harriers for Air Superiority, or for sinking enemy ships. The Marines use harriers for close ground support, but the Navy or the Air force will have already cleared the skies and bombed the major targets.

As far as training goes...Anyone know what the brits record is at the NTC? That would be a good test of conventional units.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Yah, it's true. The vectored-thrust design limits their maneuverability and top speed. They're basically helicopters that can become slow jets, or vice-versa. Still, they look darn cool at air shows!

 

[Ren]

China! If they keep growing in population, they's probably have to expand, and if they do into central and north east asia, they'll get an even bigger ground army, And probably the finance required to develop their Navy and Air Force..

 

[amadeus]

Hah...territorial gains by conventional warfare died out in the civilized world after World War II.

 

[redtom]

Harrier Jumpjets are maneuverable, have you ever seen the famous cockpit video of the plane literally stopping dead in the air allowing two hit seeking missiles fly past to hit a hill in front

The americans tried to copy the Harrier, but failed because it kept on crashing due to poor american engineering.

 

[Acid Reign]

Originally posted by andycapp


Oh, and I thought you were from 'Britain' - silly me.

Its known as Great Britain because it is bigger than Lesser Britain, now known as Britanny in France.

 

[redtom]

Originally posted by Acid Reign


Its known as Great Britain because it is bigger than Lesser Britain, now known as Britanny in France.

I guess that makes sense, however, the French prefer to say that Grande Britagne started out as Gris Britagne or Grey Britain, typical French. If any of you've seen Asterix is Britain you can understand exactly what the French think of weather- when its not raining its foggy, I can admit this is mostly true.

 

[IceBlaZe]

The Israeli Commando army trained both the SAS and Delta Force before their war in afghanistan
Wether if you like it or not, Israel has the most experienced army in guerilla fighting.

Also, Israel is the only country to contain an effective anti-missile solution, including anti-nuke, and it developed it with the help of USA who sees in it as a forward step towards thier own startegic missile defence program.

Also, Israels missile guidance system is the best in the world (I think) and USA chose it over lockheeds martin in their war in afghanistan, and our Merkava 4 tank, who just came out of development, can beat any other tank in the world, its the only tank in the world with homing missiles.

Also, compared to Its size, the Israeli Airforce is probably the best in the world, never beaten in any war.

You were talking about Economy too? Well Israel is not strong economicly but it contains the highest amount of high-tech companies compared to its size, and compared to our size and years of existence we developed the highest amount of high-tech weapons.

We were also about to sell the most advanced intelligence airplane in the world to china, in a deal worth 2 billion dollars eventually, but the US was scared china will be more superior then itself in intelligence aircraft so we had to cancel the deal under US Government pressure.

You want to know about the best intelligence in the world?
The british might have been the best a few decades ago, but the Israeli one is the only one who eliminated almost every terrorist wanted, we were the only intelligence agency in the world that managed to get info out of Iraq's weaponal ability after the gulf war, and we were the ones to reveal that he still contains Anthrax, Black Pops (if that is how its called in english..), Hanter and chimical weapon in an amount to generously decrease a large part of the worlds population.

Heck, if bin laden was a target of ours, USA would probably know his location before it even started the war.

 

[redtom]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
The Israeli Commando army trained both the SAS and Delta Force before their war in afghanistan
Wether if you like it or not, Israel has the most experienced army in guerilla fighting.

Also, Israel is the only country to contain an effective anti-missile solution, including anti-nuke, and it developed it with the help of USA who sees in it as a forward step towards thier own startegic missile defence program.

Also, Israels missile guidance system is the best in the world (I think) and USA chose it over lockheeds martin in their war in afghanistan, and our Merkava 4 tank, who just came out of development, can beat any other tank in the world, its the only tank in the world with homing missiles.

Also, compared to Its size, the Israeli Airforce is probably the best in the world, never beaten in any war.

You were talking about Economy too? Well Israel is not strong economicly but it contains the highest amount of high-tech companies compared to its size, and compared to our size and years of existence we developed the highest amount of high-tech weapons.

We were also about to sell the most advanced intelligence airplane in the world to china, in a deal worth 2 billion dollars eventually, but the US was scared china will be more superior then itself in intelligence aircraft so we had to cancel the deal under US Government pressure.

You want to know about the best intelligence in the world?
The british might have been the best a few decades ago, but the Israeli one is the only one who eliminated almost every terrorist wanted, we were the only intelligence agency in the world that managed to get info out of Iraq's weaponal ability after the gulf war, and we were the ones to reveal that he still contains Anthrax, Black Pops (if that is how its called in english..), Hanter and chimical weapon in an amount to generously decrease a large part of the worlds population.

Heck, if bin laden was a target of ours, USA would probably know his location before it even started the war.

The SAS can't have learned a lot, they didn't do normal Israeli procedure going in guns blazing shooting innocent people bulldozing peoples houses.

Israel after all is hypocritical state, escaping persecution only to persecute. I do accept that Hamas are dangerous thugs, but attacking all the people of Palestine will only cause more anti-Israeli fervour throughout the near east.

Sharon must **** off and die. Sharon must allow more progressive, less conservative, less murderous politicians in his place, if he ever wants peace. The way Sharon is going into things, it will only get worse.

P.S. British SAS, have a more secretive, more advanced fighting force called the SBS, were they there training with world's most experienced/murderous special force.

P.S.S I do accept Britain has a lot to learn from a country that has been in war since existence. I must commend israel for managing to stay in existence, but that doesn't stop you hypocrites.

 

[Fayadi]

Good facts and argument
its my turn to put out the facts!
The most important element to become world superpower is economy!Soviet Union sure has the most powerful military in 1970's but in late 1980's they had an economic collapse that forced them to be disintegrated.




"You were talking about Economy too? Well Israel is not strong economicly but it contains the highest amount of high-tech companies compared to its size, and compared to our size and years of existence we developed the highest amount of high-tech weapons. "

You were talking about high-tech weapons or high-tech stuffs for commercial purposes?Lets talk about East Asian countries
Singapore have more high-tech factory than Israel does thats why their economy is stronger
Korea ,Taiwan has more high-tech factory than Singapore does
Japan being the 2nd largest economy in the world has high tech factories as their primary "weapon" as why they had such a big economy .Japan present economy size is about half of the US'
China is expected to have an economy 3 times the size of Japan...
Imagine if a world with 3 Japan:crazyeyes
Just for additional information,only US and Japan owns AEGIS class cruise in this world.AEGIS class cruiser is the most advanced battleship on Earth.Japan is superior than Israel in Naval
China's military technology is the same with the Russian
So Imagine East Asian will be the major economic powerhouse replacing the european union and US
This is an argument so dont get offended

Just for additional information,only US and Japan owns AEGIS class cruise in this world.AEGIS class cruiser is the most advanced battleship on Earth.Japan is superior than Israel in Naval
China's military technology is the same with the Russian

 

[IceBlaZe]

lol redtom, your government slaughtered people in ireland

 

[IceBlaZe]

redtom:
You are absolutely right!
The British and the American army only killed about 7000 afghan citizens, including a red cross foundation, but thats no big deal right?
And they only did that to catch one terrorists... I wish Israel would be as efficient as them.

About the house bulldozing, I guess in that case we should act the same way you did again, its much more effective to just bomb all the houses instead of effectively bulldoze TERRORIST HOUSES.
heck, you ruined all of the infrastracture the afghans did not have.

But I would not expect you to know more than that.. you only know the things you watch on your European-Favoured TV, that only shows the poor palestinien victims and the meanie mean Israeli army.
Why should I know what happens in my country? only a friend of my parents got murdered by terrorists that arafat sent 15 years ago...
There is no living man on earth with more jewish blood on his hands than arafat, yet we are negotiating with him and USA and the UK just bomb everything that reminds the taliban or bin-laden.

We are the exact opposit of hypocrit, we do what we feel like and we say what we feel like, instead of declaring resolutions against Israel like the UN while supporting terror countries such as Syria.

So during all of Israel's years of fights agianst the palestiniens the sum ends up in about 1100 dead palestiniens... I think a deent amount of them are terrorists...
Yet Brtiain and USA managed to pass that and over-triple it in less than 3 mounths... and you are calling us murderous?

---------------

Fayadi:
I talked both about regular high-tech and weaponal high-tech.
Israel does not contain a lot of high-tech factories, we mostly do the technoloy, the factories are built in cheap maintainance lands in places such as china, korea and the rest of them.

 

[IceBlaZe]

A Formidable Opponent
“Physically, the IDF is in excellent condition,” says Jane’s Intelligence Review. “The Israeli Air Force is the world’s most powerful deployed tactical air force, and the Israeli Army has more combat-ready heavy divisions than NATO can deploy in Europe.”
In the last five years, Israel has received almost $5 billion in arms shipments from the United States and Germany. These deliveries are in addition to $9 billion in U.S. military aid and about $11 billion in additional domestic military procurement and R&D.
Israeli armored brigades are made up of powerful Merkava III tanks, Achzarit assault infantry carriers and Puma combat engineering vehicles, supported by Apache helicopters, upgraded M109A6 howitzers and MLRS rocket launchers. Jane’s calls them “the world’s best-equipped heavy ground-combat units.”

taken from ABCNEWS
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/israel116_army.html

 

[amadeus]

Good thing Mao Zedong saved China from the evil Chiang Kai-shek...

Do you really, believe, Fayadi, that the Communists brought the economic power to China?