The Order

[Mailbox]

Everyone knows the White Hand is the sanest religion.

 

[KillerClowns]

One of my favorite points about the Order is that, unlike in our world where you can question the truth of any religion, in a world where demons walk around killing people fanatism is a much more reasonable response. Especially by the Bannor who have been through trials where any deviation from strict obediance endangered themselves and their community.

Judging the Order by modern culture certainly places them as strict religious fanatics. But judging them in the world of Erebus, I dont know, they may be the only sane ones.

The Imperium of Man defense. "Fascism is preferable to having your soul eaten by demons and/or other abominations unto all that is holy." True enough, but I'm a bit wary of using it in the context of Fall from Heaven. The Empyrean and its followers seem to get on just fine without demanding unquestioning obedience. Sure, the Overcouncil can be a huge pain in the rear if you're trying to stop the forces of Hell from destroying everything, whether it be because their love of liberty makes crusading impossible, or they banned your best mana type, or just refusing to let you wipe the smirk off those Amurite dogs who you just know are worshiping Esus and helping out the Infernals because said Amurites somehow managed to end up heading the Overcouncil. But you can leave the Overcouncil, and aside from that, Erebus has plenty of non-fascist (EDIT: and non-fanatic) ways to deal with Hell, meaning the Order need not be fascist (EDIT: or fanatic) to do so. EDIT: It could easily be used to justify fascism, but I read it as fundamentally about "rule of law," a belief of many of America's founding fathers, among others, have held.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

The Imperium of Man defense. "Fascism is preferable to having your soul eaten by demons and/or other abominations unto all that is holy." True enough, but I'm a bit wary of using it in the context of Fall from Heaven. The Empyrean and its followers seem to get on just fine without demanding unquestioning obedience. Sure, the Overcouncil can be a huge pain in the rear if you're trying to stop the forces of Hell from destroying everything, whether it be because their love of liberty makes crusading impossible, or they banned your best mana type, or just refusing to let you wipe the smirk off those Amurite dogs who you just know are worshiping Esus and helping out the Infernals because said Amurites somehow managed to end up heading the Overcouncil. But you can leave the Overcouncil, and aside from that, Erebus has plenty of non-fascist ways to deal with Hell, meaning the Order need not be fascist to do so.

Fascism? Order is a religion, they do not exclude races or casts. It is unfair to put the label of fascistic to everything that encourages self-discipline.
It seems that self-discipline is terrifying to some people and they try to force it out of the human life. I consider self-discipline to be a good thing, though.

 

[KillerClowns]

Fascism? Order is a religion, they do not exclude races or casts. It is unfair to put the label of fascistic to everything that encourages self-discipline.
It seems that self-discipline is terrifying to some people and they try to force it out of the human life. I consider self-discipline to be a good thing, though.

You misunderstood me. I was saying it wasn't fascist (although it has potential to be interpreted as such) because fascism is unnecessary. Erebus is bad, but it's not as bad as Warhammer 40k, which spawned the Imperium of Man for which I've named the Order's most common defense, by a long, long measure. I'll skim through and edit the bit you quoted to make that a bit clearer.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

You misunderstood me. I was saying it wasn't fascist (although it has potential to be interpreted as such) because fascism is unnecessary. I'll skim through and edit the bit you quoted to make that a bit clearer.

I see, sorry for the misinterpretation then .

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Order is certainly about discipline, but self discipline is only a small part of that. Self discipline is probably at least as present in the Empyrean as The Order, where men must think for themselves and make their own rule for their conduct instead of doing whatever their superiors say for fear of punishment.

I would say The Order is Fascist, as it idealizes the authority of the state (Fasces, literally the bundle of rods and (often double headed) axe originally used for but generally just symbolizing the authority to inflict corporal or capital punishment) over the freedom individual. Fascism does not require any sort of racism or caste system, and in some rare circumstances may be quite justified.

(I personally think that what we usually call fascism should be called Nefascism, from the Latin Nefasces (which admittedly I've never found in an actual Latin dictionary, only in something said by someone in a Latin facebook group). Nefasces ("not fasces") refers to the same bundle or authority as Fasces when it is abused and thus should be resisted instead of obeyed. I like to say "Fasces contra fas sunt nefas et nefasces," meaning roughly "authority against divine law is a sin and not to be obeyed.")

 

[WarKirby]

Try reading the quote for the Religious Law tech sometime.

I find that amusing, and a nice example of their mentality.

 

[Kenjister]

The Religious Law quote is amusing, though it doesn't specify that it's the Order that they're talking about. I think it could be fitting for any overzealous priest when talking to infidels (or thier enemies).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

The Order seems to be much weaker than the other religions in the game, which is ridiculous, because it is also the latest religion and the one with the weakest pre-requisite technologies. I don't care if they are fanatics or not, all I know is that as a ruler, this religion is pathetically weak.

I mean seriously, a legion of 9-feet tall demons are charging at you, and all you do is sprinkle some "holy water" around and tell us our "blessed weapons" will win? Yeah, thanks.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

BUT BUT ITS EASY TO SPREAD

yeah, no. Only religion I never pursue.

 

[KillerClowns]

Yeah, it's not much above FoL, and at least that has what it does for the Elves and its early availability going for it. I've won quite a few religious victories with the Order, but in those cases it wasn't so much religious victory as "early domination victory," and really, it was more for the fun of rampaging wild and praying for the AV to be founded, preferably far away, so I could start torching them en masse while cackling madly. (Yeah, I RP exactly the kind of fanatic I'm trying to argue is in the minority in the Order...) My best games, in terms of smashing victories, are as other religions, usually the OO, but my most enjoyable are as the Order. Then again, I'm also a crazy, grinning loon who plays as Peach and Olimar in SSBB, so make what you will of me...
Although, as Monkeyfinger so... eloquently pointed out, it does spread like a plague. If you beeline for it, you can usually spread it to the entirety of your continent with alarming speed. But you could be researching more weapons for your soldiers, the secrets of the arcane, or just things to make your citizens lives better instead, so it's not exactly an optimal strategy.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

The Order seems to be much weaker than the other religions in the game, which is ridiculous, because it is also the latest religion and the one with the weakest pre-requisite technologies. I don't care if they are fanatics or not, all I know is that as a ruler, this religion is pathetically weak.

Well, perhaps the free disciple or crusader in cities it spreads is useful...Especially in newly captured cities

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

This is so true...that it almost makes me sad...

 

[KillerClowns]

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Now that I think about it... as much as I deeply and truly agree with the quote (especially the last part), I'm not sure it really holds true in a world where archangels do battle, the power of the gods is channeled daily for miracles, and on occasion, a god comes to Erebus to personally lock it in another several centuries of ICE (before dying an anti-climactic death by the hands of some worker who happened to get a funny looking sword from a strange old man).

 

[Keeper_GFA]

The Order seems to be much weaker than the other religions in the game, which is ridiculous, because it is also the latest religion and the one with the weakest pre-requisite technologies. I don't care if they are fanatics or not, all I know is that as a ruler, this religion is pathetically weak.

3 words . . . no hell terrain.

 

[Kenjister]

Am I the only one who doesn't think the Order is weak? Valin comes with the founding tech, and it's perfect for domination victories with almost 90% reduced maintenence (assume 2 law mana). Confessors and Bless can swing odds much toward your favor when using cannon fodder, and if 9 foot tall demons DO charge at you, Crusaders with bless get a 60% bonus vs. them. Not to mention that Social Order removes most of the happiness problems you might get. Then there's Sphener. Heal plus Command 4. No need to build an army again.

Still, it is a late religion and by no means the best, but I think it's one of the top ones there.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I think Order to be the most powerful, combatwise, religion in the game. If you want to obliterate your enemies, this is the best IMO, with Empyrean a close second.

 

[Broken Hawk]

One of my favorite points about the Order is that, unlike in our world where you can question the truth of any religion, in a world where demons walk around killing people fanatism is a much more reasonable response. Especially by the Bannor who have been through trials where any deviation from strict obediance endangered themselves and their community.

Judging the Order by modern culture certainly places them as strict religious fanatics. But judging them in the world of Erebus, I dont know, they may be the only sane ones.

They are sane because they are the only ones paying attention to the fact Agares and friends are trying to drag Erebus down to hell and they are doing what it takes, based on experience, (Bannor and Mercurians) to try and stop evil civs.

 

[Skids]

But when there is no demons stalking in shadows and evil looming behind horizon Order can really become the bad guys.

In one game I played as Order Bannor only evil civ was Balseraphs who were driven to see and eradicated not much later. So after that world was filled with happiness and outright goodness of Empyrean that was being followed by multiple civs, including Basium who had been summoned to AV, evil-free world. (I was the only Order following civ) When the overcouncil(that I had foolishly joined) decided to make Liberty global civic all hell broke loose when my Social Order following Bannor outright refused.

That turned out to be perhaps the bloodiest war I had ever fought in FFH, when Basium's angelic assassins murdered my siege breaking mages, my only solution was to throw mass produced champions and demagogues against the walls. Sometimes it's not enough to be good for Order, you also have to be the right shade of good.

 

[WarKirby]

Oder temples give +10% military production.

They also get the awesome Basilica building, which is like building a second courthouse

Sphener is one of the strongest heroes in the game. However, I would agree that they're lacking something...

The Ashen Veil has Meshabber of Dis. But the order has no megaunit. I think this needs to be corrected. Give them come great archangel or somesuch.A flying, demon smiting, hell-clearing war machine.

 

[Darksaber1]

Hmm, I guess we can clearly see the were (in game) allegiances of a notable portion of the community lie.