The Pretenders

I think the big decisions at this point are:

* gank Ragnar's settler?
* finish Aesthetics, or swap to Iron Working (or take a trade from DeGaulle for it?)
* where to settle city 5?
* what to do with Great Person in Madrid due in 3 turns?

My proposed answers are Yes, finish Aesthetics, settle green dot city for a second SE/library city, and build shrine (if prophet) or lightbulb Metal Casting (if engineer). I know that bulbing GEs is not the norm, but Metal Casting would give us forges and is on the path to Engineering, a key tech to get our Citadels.

We can war with Ragnar now. We have about 8 axes and 2 chariots near Barcelona that can deal with whatever he's got. Madrid and Seville should get our catapults out in about 10 turns.

Edit: Another thought. Once Aesthetics is done we can build the Shwedegon Paya. We have another tree or two we could use to chop, we have the bonus resource for it, and it would allow us to skip the entire religious tech tree for a long long time. Think of it: OR for spreading religion and getting infrastructure out, Theocracy for troop build up, Pacifism for more specialists. All without having to trudge through Polytheism, Monotheism, and Theology.

However, the SP could clearly wait until after the Great Library. And then we'd have 8 GPPs in Madrid and 6 each in Cordoba and Green Dot city, not counting the Pacifism bonuses.

Then again, if you just want to crush :viking:, I understand.
 
Well, from the get go, I said our land was really nice but this is one of the best starts I've ever had. Resources available have a lot to do with that but with great communication and micromanagement, we haven't missed much. To have the lead this early in the BCs and knowing we'll never relinquish it kind of means this game is won. Ironically enough, I started a game with Suleiman and am having another rough go of it. He is a slow starter though with a great mid game.

Anyway, concerning current events here let me commend you on a great turnset. I had sacrificed everything economically to pursue our decision for the oracle, which we got along with a handful of axes. You took it from there and really set the economy into shape. Now we really can run an optimal hybrid.

I'll get the save tomorrow and look at the state of things but I'll say:

Yes to ganking ragnar's settler. It's a free worker.

I'm in favor of trading for iron and pursuing aesthetics/literature.

city 5 should be our green dot

With representation, I'm inclined to settle our great person no matter who he is. Prophets go in the holy city, engineers in our great wonder farm (Madrid). Shwedagon Paya is a total go. SP and mids with a spiritual leader who founded a religion. Um, yeah, sounds good. A scientist and I'd opt for an academy but I don't think that'll happen. I really don't like the idea of bulbing a tech where the actual bulbed beakers will be so much greater than the tech itself requires. Again, representation has a big influence on this decision. With the gangbuster rate we're rolling at, we could almost run a SSE/WE.

I'll have some more comments tomorrow after I've seen the save. We'll open the floor for some deliberation before I crank out a turn set.

:goodjob: An incredible turn-around economically.
 
I'm fine with all of your points, except I think the first great prophet should go for the shrine. With it, Confucianism will spread all over the continent and we may end up with 30+ gold coming in, not to mention the extra culture from Barcelona to push back Ragnar's borders.

By the way, there is a chariot in Seville that can destroy Ragnar's Axe + Settler on your first turn.

EDIT: I may have committed a Succession Game faux pas. FYI, Madrid is on the "emphasize production" button in the city screen ... and Cordoba is on "emphasize great person." Sorry about that.
 
Round 6 50 BC - 275 AD

I began the round by evaluating the tech scene.

thetechscene0000.jpg


Because no one had priesthood, it meant our biggest chip, Code of Laws, was off the block for any of our neighbors. I wasn't going to trade construction because of our upcoming conflict, so it meant I trade math and priesthood to De Gaulle and then be able to nab alphabet the following turn for Code of Laws. It also called for an immediate switch to currency; if any of our neighbors finished aesthetics, we'd be able to get it cheaply and we'd get to back to it anyway in time so as not to lose any beakers.

We're also last on the power meter while Raggy is way ahead in first. This has a two fold effect. The first is we can't take Ragnar's settler down and as their currently sitting in a forested hill, the chariots odds aren't good anyway. I moved our settler into location to settle the green city but my guess is he's going to be one turn late. The second effect is an immediate call to arms in all cities. Barcelona has some decent 1f 2h and is on the cusp of unhappiness so the switch will do us good. I'll grow the city to 1 unhappiness and then two pop whip for a barracks. Then it will solely focus on spears. Cordoba will whip it's courthouse and kick out some chariots and archers. Seville and Madrid will focus on offensive units. I have high hopes of iron showing up on an already mined hill. The ability to make swords will be nice but the 2h boost is the big boon. So once again, I'm going to cripple our economy but the expense of gaining some nice turf in the south. If I can squeeze in another settler, I may settle the 'aggressive city site'; at the very least have a settler ready to go.

The one thing we're not in danger of is Raggy getting longbows. Only Peter has polytheism and he might have monotheism. But he's not running HR yet, so monarchy is likely out. And that's tricky as its Raggy's favorite civic. If we start a war and that bonus to relations for favorite civic gets going, we could crunched on both sides in a war. But we're going to avoid that.

So, on with the round. I made the trade with De Gaulle.

getttiniron0000.jpg


And we don't have iron but Ragnar does, in Nidaros.

noironforusRaggyyes0000.jpg


So things went as I had thought. Ragnar settled immediately.

Razed0000.jpg


Unfortunately, it just couldn't be done nor was it a good idea. But the city will fall quickly and will be the first blood drawn in the war.

In looking at the tech chart the next turn, I noticed everyone already had alphabet so trading for it by giving up code of laws to De Gaulle seemed fruitless. But look at what he was willing to do.

greattrade0000.jpg


Even beakers, my ursine friend! Even beakers. It's nice to get sailing thrown in but horse archers and stables are great. I'll probably whip the courthouse in cordoba and put the excess hammers into a stable. Then we will be kicking out five xp chariots; combat II chariots for ragnar's straggling axemen and of course a medic I who can be used for a M.A.S.H. unit; we'll call him Hawkeye. Perhaps Hot Lips since we're playing Izzy. I'm hoping the TV series doesn't outdate you.

MM Note: I took one of the scientists off Cordoba for a turn so the great scientist didn't pop before our potential prophet/engineer. Given the situation, I might save the Engineer for the Great Library.

Almost too perfect, El Ruso founded Christianity. We got a prophet and he is headed to Barcelona to found the shrine. Hopefully, it will hit one of De Gaulle's cities and we can convert him. We'll need to send a couple of missionaries on a gallery. We definitely want him on our side and he has neither stone nor marble. I'm inclined to trade them both to him and let him build wonders for us. Not at the moment but it is something to think about depending on how things go.

With all the pieces in place despite probably having to play early defense, I decided to go for a little warfare. Ragnar doesn't have any horses which will keep him slow moving, and Peter and De Gaulle are both only cautious so no diplomatic demerits there.

wartimewithraggy0000.jpg


With 79.5% odds, the chariot razed the newly founded city of Tonberg and I had an axeman there to back him up. More units of Raggy's were moving up the coast to reinforce the city. Now I'd move for some defensive posturing while building up forces. The battle of Uppsula will be the big one and I'm thinking it should be razed. Our culture will immediately fill in the area. The chariot who just won a battle will become our medic. And then we move onto Nidaros. After that, it should be gravy mop up. He has no horses and once the iron is gone, it'll be all archers because he is miles away from feudalism.

I founded Toledo (our green city) immediately after razing Tonberg. I had put the specialists back to work in Cordoba (scientists) and decided not to whip there because these two scientists represented (no pun intended) a good chunk of our research. Our slider was flirting between 40 and 50% so we were still ok.

Toledo0000.jpg


You can see more of Ragnar's troops moving up the coast including a settler. Once currency is in, I'll be looking into some double whips for extra troops. The good news we have sugar and silk online and incense should follow shortly. Currently, most of our workers are moving towards that tile roading along the way from various directions. Presently, we don't have an efficient road system to get troops to the front. NOTE: I erred here. I saw a plantation to a sugar tile in our but it was one we merely claimed with Madrid's culture. We still don't have calendar but we will. END NOTE.

We declare on Ragnar and hilarity ensues. He suicided most of the stack in Uppsula at our axes outside of it. We did lose one axe in the process, but it should make life easier. Note I say should because I build these posts as I play the round. Peter adopted organized religion so he now has monotheism and Confucianism spread to Toledo right away. There is a work there to improve things but one should be enough as I use high food tiles to whip early infrastructure.

insnaity0000.jpg


And our prophet reached Barcelona.

kong0000.jpg


That lead to a significant bump to our treasury (+7) and lead to appropriate tweaking of our slider, now at 60% to move currency to four turns.

In an interesting turn, somehow, Peter and De Gaulle must have turned pleased the turn I declared on Ragnar as we have a -1 demerit with each of them. I'm not too concerned with any dogpiling and we'll make do if it happens.

I was forced to double whip in Seville as troops descended onto a lightly defended area but will be able to hold the ground with an archer, two axes, and a chariot. Catapults were mounting on Uppsula so the city should fall in short order. I want to point out an important piece of micro in building roads. In two instances this turn, I opted to have two workers in two different locations finish roads before moving units out of cities towards the front. In the end, this will serve these two units reaching the axes two turns sooner. It might not seem like much but can make a big difference.

Currency came in but I didn't want to trade it to the French in fear they'd exchange it with El Ruso for Calendar. Unfortunately, there wasn't much cash to be made right away. It would seem our north is pretty well filled and there is a christian contingent going. Fortunate for us, it looks as if things will stay bloody until the continent is ours. I have dreams of saving a prophet for the Church of the Nativity and De Gaulle building the AP. We can convert to Christianity, as we should, playing Isabella.

I was ready to move on Uppsula and hoping the catapults would be enough for us to take the city with few casualties. I had bombarded all defenses away.

Us

Us0000.jpg


Them

Them0000.jpg


Well, the catapults didn't go well. Attacked with four and lost them all; cats three and four had greater than 55% odds but neither survived. Gotta move in with the troops and see how they hold up.

The axes were taking a beating. They were all winning but all <1 strength remaining with 94% odds or greater. Not to mention losing an axe with 97% odds. It could've been worse.

Well, the city fell. I razed it and lost an axe in the process in addition to every catapult that attacked. Not bad, but we'll need some recuperation time before moving forward. We also got a GG who will become a medic. Going to try to raze Raggy's iron.

razingUppsula0000.jpg


After razing Uppsula, fought off some singles dragging into Spanish lands while healing the stack with Hawkeye. They made their way to Nidaros. There are more catapults to get to the front but we have a couple lowering defenses. Raggy just got a great spy (275 AD) and probably settled him. I don't see Scotland Yard. This tech also came in:

morehappiness0000.jpg


so now we can add more happiness. I put aesthetics back in as a filler and it is two turns away.

NOTES: There is a sword near our incense tile and two workers building a plantation on it. He needs to be dealt with. Also, there is a nasty C2 shock axe paired wth an archer escorting a settler SW of Nidaros. I bet the settler gets garrisoned and that axe will be trouble. A couple of horse archers would do nicely. Between finishing the courthouse and then a stable, Cordoba is kicking out its first unit as I end the round. Incidentally, it is the only city with a stable. Raggy's power took a big dip with the fall of Uppsula. Nidaros will all but wipe him out. Don't get careless though, we will need defensive pairs scattered throughout our turf.

Once Ragnar is defeated, I think war with Peter will happen. We can try and convert De Gaulle to Conf. but if he remains Christian, we should trade him stone and marble. He'd be hard pressed to join the war in Peter's favor giving up those sweet resources. Plus, he'll just be building wonders for us.

You're up.
 

Attachments

Forgot to add we'll need culture fast in Toledo. Conf. is there and it has a religion but it will need library/temple/monastery to combat french culture.
 
Nice round ... I'll grab the save and post tomorrow a.m. I was out most of today.

Not sure about French culture ... DeGaulle is Charismatic / Industrious, yes? At the most he has Stonehenge and a religion -- nothing that confucianism and a cheap temple and a library can't handle.

Techwise I think we need to head to either Literature for the Great Library or Engineering for Citadels and uber-trebs. Do you have a preference? I really would like to try to squeeze in Shwedegon Paya too, if possible.

Also, other than Nidaros, are there any of Ragnar's cities you would particularly like to keep?

And no, M*A*S*H* doesn't predate me. 40 year old Bear here.
 
Any combo of culture buildings should do in Toledo. 5+ culture a turn should be fine. I really want that sugar tile.

I would say dealers choice on the other cities. Uppsula just seemed worth razing. Nidaros might make a nice NP/NE city for late game great people.

I think literature is worth bringing online for the GL. We've been talking about it from the get go so we should nail it down. Engineering would be next for the citadels/trebs. The stone is going to make it a breeze. I'm certainly ok with the Paya also. A couple of chops for each should be enough and I'm not picky which cities they go in.

Provided Nidaros goes down without too many hitches, the war should be a breeze. Note that Raggy has copper to the west so elimination of the iron will not be enough in derpriving him of metals.

If any major wrenches come along you think are worth talking over, just pause the round. We should start to make long term decisions with our cities once Ragnar is gone.
 
Round 7

Ragnar is no easy nut to crack. His Aggressive trait really kicked in this round, and the fact that he spend the first half of the round in a golden age didn't make things any easier. Our success came not from outproducing him (I think he had an edge here), but in choosing our battles, having more siege, and our M*A*S*H unit.

In fact, before my very first turn (i.e., I pressed enter), Ragnar counterattacked from Nidaros and killed two axemen. Throughout the round, I was concerned that we had no defensive counter to axes, and that his axes were better than ours. I continued to build chariots from Cordoba to try to kill his axes in the field offensively.

Aesthetics finished and I decided to head towards the Great Library. That required a short backtrack to Polytheism ...

Civ4ScreenShot0596.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0598.jpg


Ragnar's spies were also active this round. Both Madrid and Seville had their water supplies poisoned. In Madrdid, this was tolerable due to better health overall, but in Seville, it cost us one population point IIRC.

Civ4ScreenShot0597.jpg


We then drew the barb incursion event (again!). 4 barb archers appeared to the east of Seville. It looked like they were headed north to Cordoba.

Civ4ScreenShot0600.jpg


It was time to assault Nidaros. None of our siege weapons had yet been promoted. I elected to give the first two catapults Barrage (which was recently improved), on the theory that they were going to die anyway -- why not do as much collateral damage as possible?

Civ4ScreenShot0601.jpg


The next three got city raider; two of them lived. The assault was brutal, leaving Ragnar with one troop at the end. Hawkeye even got in on the action.

Civ4ScreenShot0602.jpg


One turn later ...

Civ4ScreenShot0604.jpg


I decided to keep it. It is well-placed and has iron, pigs, and cows, and the Great Wall. A nice production city. It also made me chuckle because the 4 barb archers were summarily ejected from Spanish territory. :lol:

Civ4ScreenShot0605.jpg


About that time, Peter came demanding Priesthood. I almost caved, since it is such a cheap tech, but out of general principles I said no.

Civ4ScreenShot0603.jpg


Literature came in and the next turn I started on the Great Library in Madrid, which may or may not have been a mistake as you will see later. I sent a few workers to our northern borders to do some long-distance chopping to aid in its construction. For our next tech, I chose Metal Casting, which would lead to Machinery (crossbows to defeat Ragnar's axes) and Engineering.

Civ4ScreenShot0607.jpg


In Cordoba, I also took a short break from making chariots to build a Lighthouse. My thinking was to increase the food yield so we could run another specialist (a spy, probably).

Civ4ScreenShot0609.jpg


Our great scientist also came in. I decided to build an academy in Barcelnona, which had our greatest beaker output. I know that Barcelona will be our wealth city, but an Academy never hurts. If we get enough scientists, I think we should build an Academy in Madrid and our science city (which may end up being Cordoba or perhaps the area to Nidaros' east -- it has gold and cottageable land).

Civ4ScreenShot0610.jpg


Well the stack had healed in Nidaros and I elected to move the army west to try to capture Haithabu. Taking that and the other city to the west will deprive him of metals. Haithabu is on a hill and hornhead had a few archers there. I'm glad he hasn't gotten Feudalism yet! We took it fairly easily ...

Civ4ScreenShot0611.jpg


Bear Errors

After a relatively mistake-free Round 5, I am proud to be back on the doofus scoreboard.

Mistake #1: stopping building military units temporarily in Madrid and Cordoba. I thought that with the defeat of Ragnar's main force at Nidaros, I could divert some hammers to the Great Library and a Lighthouse. In retrospect, we could have used the 5-7 extra units that we would have otherwise received. Why, you say? Here's why:

Civ4ScreenShot0614.jpg


Here you see that Ragnar has a decent counter-attacking stack ready to retake Haithabu, and I don't have enough units to reinforce it. This is compounded by Mistake #2: I elected to capture Haithabu rather than raze it (I was enamored by the sheep and deer and its riverside location).

I decided to end the round here so that we could discuss whether to get a cease fire with Ragnar (he'll give us 50 gold and Alphabet) and use that time to reload, reposition, and knock out the rest of the Great Library and the Shwedegon Paya. I think if we don't take peace he'll kill those three units sitting in Haithabu and we'll lose more retaking it (the assaulting units from the turn before are all wounded).

I don't think the 10 turns off will set us back too much. Also remember that we have now knocked out his best production cities -- we can out-:hammers: him now.

I have also looked at Ragnar's remaining cities, and only Birka is well-placed. The rest should be torched ... Jelling is one tile from getting iron in its BFC, Bjorgvin is built on top of copper and is not riverside, and the mystery city in the icy tundra of the southwest is garbage.

Metal Casting finishes in one round, by the way. I suggest going up to get Engineering, then going back over to the top of the tree for Music so we can work towards Conquistadors (Military Tradition is hard to get .. Nationalism + Gunpowder IIRC).
 

Attachments

lurker's comment (just because you stated you are playing a game to improve)
Spoiler :

City placement:

While I fully agreed that a single tile (in your case desert gold) doesn't justify "sacrifying" a city to the desert, I would have placed your red dot (horse city) 1 NE.
Same amount (but slightly better) land tiles, no overlap (the one tile from Madrid), avoids the 2 desert tiles (not that water tiles are spectacular) and 1 more forest.
All in all, some minor points but long-term a small plus.

MM:

Also, the monument wasn't necessary when you are going to run a library with 2 scientists anyway. (could be caused by lack of planning ahead or lacking communication between players.

Third, neither do you want wasting worker turns to build the plain farms at Madrid (one is even not near a river :( ) nor do you want to work them.
It's actually hard to find a situation where you want to work such a tile.
A commerce or hybrid city can have enough food to work plain cottages (preferably riverside), later in the game a city could work plain-workshops with the appropriate enhancers but for early game production they are out, use :whipped:

Just ment to be as constructive hints :)
 
I'll grab the save tonight and play a round.

I'll get a quick cease fire with Ragnar, probably heal and whip units, and finish him off. Peter annoyed is not a good thing. His boxed in and isn't nearly as REXed as he'd like to be. War is imminent.:) And he may be able to pull De Gaulle into things. Even if that happens, it usually is several turns before it poses a threat because they're simply not prepared for an offensive. An early straggler here and there and ten turns before a 'force' is headed our way. He's ahead of Peter in tech, and we can see to it Peter has nothing to offer him to get him involved; techs or stone/marble.

I'll get the Great Library online asap and then go back to all units in our four core cities. I'm also going to MM the whip and get out of slavery in favor of caste system. An extra specialist here or there will help and eliminate the possibility (or at the very least, lessen it) of a revolt. Probably should've been on that sooner as we're spiritual and should take advantage of the civics available to us.
 
Maybe a few missionaries and a spy could get DeGaulle over to Confucianism, to keep him out of any war. That would certainly be cheaper than all the units we'd have to devote to dealing with France.
 
Round 8 540 AD -

I began the round by suing for peace with Ragnar lest we give Haithabu back. I'm going to focus on finishing him off, and with any luck will DoW with all expediency.

peaceraggy0000.jpg


Got a little cash and alphabet out of the mix.

I whipped in Barcelona (cat), Seville (axe), and Cordoba (lighthouse) and switched to caste system for five turns. We haven't been burned by a revolt yet so I'm taking advantage of our spiritual trait. Nice move on your part going with the quick temple build in our new cities. No need for a monument with half price temples.:goodjob:

On the same turn, I traded Polytheism to Ragnar for the remaining 20:gold: in his treasury and priesthood to Peter for 50:gold:

For our next tech, I chose civil service. It will take 9 turns and will save a turn or two for machinery and engineering. I set Cordoba to build horse archers to defend our turf from any random straggler while focusing on catapults everywhere else except our civilian builds in Toledo and our new Viking cities.

Ragnar immediately made the mistake of sending out settlers thus thinning himself out. He'll probably found one or two cities during peacetime. It will lengthen the war, but make it eaiser on us.

Looking forward, both Moscow and Paris are forest heavy presently. We'll need to scout them out again as possible National Park sites. I'd like to use Nidaros' forests to chop settlers and settle the south. There are actually several decent sites despite the ice and tundra. I'll make a potential dotmap towards the end of the round.

We got the Great Library.

GreatLibrary0000.jpg


This lowered civil service to six turns and I think reinforces the decision. We won't lose a turn of research switching to bureaucracy and will switch back to slavery the same to turn to work the whip right before wartime.

I did a lot of micro on a turn by turn basis switching scientists for production tiles in Cordoba, Seville, and Barcelona. My goal was to maximize production and keep the slider at 60% with a deficit around 25 without affecting the research time for CS.

Tech trading risks: I decided to trade currency to De Gaulle for Monarchy and 40 gold. Peter was the first to philosophy and is Friendly with De Gaulle. I'm hoping De Gaulle can trade for it with Peter and then trade it to us. Plus, it will ensure the Angkor Wat is built on our continent. Perhaps some :smoke: logic on my part but the 40 gold is also nice. I like to maximize the treasury in any way possible; also if some bad event comes up we need some cash to bail us out. I'm not labeling it as a mistake but perhaps an unnecessary trade; a monopoly on currency doesn't do anything for us. By the way, Peter isn't trading with us at all.

We had a chariot in Nidaros with 5 xp's. I gave him flanking I/sentry I (and named him Radar). I sent him towards Bjorgvin because with Sentry he'd be able to see into it. The picture doesn't show the list of troops but it is 1 sword, 4 axes, and an archer.

Recon0000.jpg


I was trying to gauge how much of our Haithabu garrison to bring along to take the city. 50% defense and six troops meant quick a bit. We'd need a few turns to reduce defenses. We should've had some spies because we could use a little revolt. It's one of the things mentioned before we started the game but haven't really had the opportunity thus far to build them. We just got alphabet. Given how spread out Ragnar is, we forced to garrison a lot of areas.

700 AD Ragnar converts to Confucianism on his own. We'll probably need to reinforce with a couple of missionaries. Civil Service in 2 turns. A DoW in five turns, we should have all forces in place to finish him off.

720 AD Shwedagon Paya built. CS in and a switch to machinery (7 turns).

760 AD - The slider is going down due to our diminishing treasury. We're in need of a lot of infrastructure. I've whipped away an additional boatload of troops. We're ready and just for show....

secondragggywar0000.jpg


It's on now!! I had the big stack prepped to move on Bjorgvin.

bringit0000.jpg


I was also poised to steal a worker across the continent.

workersteal0000.jpg


We got him!!

Ragnar was poised to found another city in a sub optimal area. Our old woodsman II warrior had been camping there for a long time. I was going to try to keep him alive. Jelling is a good size, I hate to raze it, but we can do so much more with that turf.

newcity0000.jpg


I'm not going to bombard you with screen shots during the war. Nidaros is surrounded by troops and workers of Ragnar's but I'm confident they'll hold. I did whip a barracks in Nidaros and its about to kick out its first archer and will continue to build a couple more troops. Once Bjorgvin is gone, we can probably be a little more sacrificial with troops but not too much. Even though maces are around the corner followed by pikes/trebs, Peter's power meter is high and he's boxed in. Don't want to boost his confidence. All units builds in the north are now going to remain up there. I'm foolishly attempting the Mausoleum of Massoslous (spelling?) in Madrid. We've got marble and it's nice to have.

Bjorgvin fell on the second turn of the war. I had enough cats to reduce defenses in a turn. We only lost 1 catapult in the process, no soldiers. Quite fortuitous. It also had another worker and we got a great general during the process. I'm opting to keep it even though you pointed out it's location on the copper tile. Besides the mountain tiles, it's an above average city with good tiles. It's not on the river but we're expansive. I'm inclined to keep most of them and I'll give you my reasons.

1. The cities in the SW all have good tiles and it's all about working good tiles.
2. These cities will not be big producers but can have the basic infrstructure and then build boats, missionaries, and spies.
3. The other thing I like to do with these cities away from the front are build stables and supporting mounted units while using cities close to the front to build ground troops and siege. The extra movement allows them to catch up.
4. With all the infrastructure we need in our core cities, I'm not certain we can afford to build lots of settlers.
5. I'm in favoring of razing and building settlers to redo city alignment in the SE of Ragnar's (our) empire.

Jelling again, though, is going to be tough to raze with its size. That'll be your decision. I'm going to try to get some settlers going now so we have them down there in time.

I used a combination of defensive cats and axes to get rid of a small invading stack near Haithabu. Remember, we got the Great Wall from Nidaros so that's big GG points for combat in our turf.

To add insult to injury, it seems Ragnar was having problems with Barbs.

BarbTrouble0000.jpg


:lol:

The war continued. Roskilde fell, kept it, again for reasons above. Got a stack moving on Jelling and Birka. Ragnar is moving on Nidaros, but he's not attacking. I also worked this in...

mausoleum0000.jpg


It's a good wonder. We'll rip a golden age at some point and now we'll get an additional four turns. Machinery came in and I squeezed in Monotheism (1 turn) before moving towards engineering.

The rounds ends with Birka falling. However, Ragnar was able to finish civil service and trade it to De Gaulle for feudalism. Presently, he has one longbow. I had a catapult/axe combo luck out in the Birka siege against a longbow losing neither. Jelling has one, we have a stack there but I'm not certain the stack can take the city.

Our GG and a Great Scientist (just got him) came in this turn.

Dot Map

newdotmap0000.jpg


Finish off Ragnar. We've got unhappiness issues. Research is low and we're spread thin. It'll be a quick turn around though. I just switched civics to CS and OR. Switch back to slavery in five to ten turns to crack the whip. Then we'll beat up Peter. Just post any questions when you check out the save.

yeah, verbose :rolleyes:
 
Round 8 540 AD - 940 AD

I began the round by suing for peace with Ragnar lest we give Haithabu back. I'm going to focus on finishing him off, and with any luck will DoW with all expediency.

peaceraggy0000.jpg


Got a little cash and alphabet out of the mix.

I whipped in Barcelona (cat), Seville (axe), and Cordoba (lighthouse) and switched to caste system for five turns. We haven't been burned by a revolt yet so I'm taking advantage of our spiritual trait. Nice move on your part going with the quick temple build in our new cities. No need for a monument with half price temples.:goodjob:

On the same turn, I traded Polytheism to Ragnar for the remaining 20:gold: in his treasury and priesthood to Peter for 50:gold:

For our next tech, I chose civil service. It will take 9 turns and will save a turn or two for machinery and engineering. I set Cordoba to build horse archers to defend our turf from any random straggler while focusing on catapults everywhere else except our civilian builds in Toledo and our new Viking cities.

Ragnar immediately made the mistake of sending out settlers thus thinning himself out. He'll probably found one or two cities during peacetime. It will lengthen the war, but make it eaiser on us.

Looking forward, both Moscow and Paris are forest heavy presently. We'll need to scout them out again as possible National Park sites. I'd like to use Nidaros' forests to chop settlers and settle the south. There are actually several decent sites despite the ice and tundra. I'll make a potential dotmap towards the end of the round.

We got the Great Library.

GreatLibrary0000.jpg


This lowered civil service to six turns and I think reinforces the decision. We won't lose a turn of research switching to bureaucracy and will switch back to slavery the same to turn to work the whip right before wartime.

I did a lot of micro on a turn by turn basis switching scientists for production tiles in Cordoba, Seville, and Barcelona. My goal was to maximize production and keep the slider at 60% with a deficit around 25 without affecting the research time for CS.

Tech trading risks: I decided to trade currency to De Gaulle for Monarchy and 40 gold. Peter was the first to philosophy and is Friendly with De Gaulle. I'm hoping De Gaulle can trade for it with Peter and then trade it to us. Plus, it will ensure the Angkor Wat is built on our continent. Perhaps some :smoke: logic on my part but the 40 gold is also nice. I like to maximize the treasury in any way possible; also if some bad event comes up we need some cash to bail us out. I'm not labeling it as a mistake but perhaps an unnecessary trade; a monopoly on currency doesn't do anything for us. By the way, Peter isn't trading with us at all.

We had a chariot in Nidaros with 5 xp's. I gave him flanking I/sentry I (and named him Radar). I sent him towards Bjorgvin because with Sentry he'd be able to see into it. The picture doesn't show the list of troops but it is 1 sword, 4 axes, and an archer.

Recon0000.jpg


I was trying to gauge how much of our Haithabu garrison to bring along to take the city. 50% defense and six troops meant quite a bit. We'd need a few turns to reduce defenses. We should've had some spies because we could use a little revolt. It's one of the things mentioned before we started the game but haven't really had the opportunity thus far to build them. We just got alphabet. Given how spread out Ragnar is, we forced to garrison a lot of areas.

700 AD De Gaulle converts to Confucianism on his own. We'll probably need to reinforce with a couple of missionaries. Civil Service in 2 turns. A DoW in five turns, we should have all forces in place to finish him off.

720 AD Shwedagon Paya built (not by us). CS in and a switch to machinery (7 turns).

760 AD - The slider is going down due to our diminishing treasury. We're in need of a lot of infrastructure. I've whipped away an additional boatload of troops. We're ready and just for show....

secondragggywar0000.jpg


It's on now!! I had the big stack prepped to move on Bjorgvin.

bringit0000.jpg


I was also poised to steal a worker across the continent.

workersteal0000.jpg


We got him!!

Ragnar was poised to found another city in a sub optimal area. Our old woodsman II warrior had been camping there for a long time. I was going to try to keep him alive. Jelling is a good size, I hate to raze it, but we can do so much more with that turf.

newcity0000.jpg


I'm not going to bombard you with screen shots during the war. Nidaros is surrounded by troops and workers of Ragnar's but I'm confident they'll hold. I did whip a barracks in Nidaros and its about to kick out its first archer and will continue to build a couple more troops. Once Bjorgvin is gone, we can probably be a little more sacrificial with troops but not too much. Even though maces are around the corner followed by pikes/trebs, Peter's power meter is high and he's boxed in. Don't want to boost his confidence. All units builds in the north are now going to remain up there. I'm foolishly attempting the Mausoleum of Massoslous (spelling?) in Madrid. We've got marble and it's nice to have.

Bjorgvin fell on the second turn of the war. I had enough cats to reduce defenses in a turn. We only lost 1 catapult in the process, no soldiers. Quite fortuitous. It also had another worker and we got a great general during the process. I'm opting to keep it even though you pointed out it's location on the copper tile. Besides the mountain tiles, it's an above average city with good tiles. It's not on the river but we're expansive. I'm inclined to keep most of them and I'll give you my reasons.

1. The cities in the SW all have good tiles and it's all about working good tiles.
2. These cities will not be big producers but can have the basic infrstructure and then build boats, missionaries, and spies.
3. The other thing I like to do with these cities away from the front are build stables and supporting mounted units while using cities close to the front to build ground troops and siege. The extra movement allows them to catch up.
4. With all the infrastructure we need in our core cities, I'm not certain we can afford to build lots of settlers.
5. I'm in favoring of razing and building settlers to redo city alignment in the SE of Ragnar's (our) empire.

Jelling again, though, is going to be tough to raze with its size. That'll be your decision. I'm going to try to get some settlers going now so we have them down there in time.

I used a combination of defensive cats and axes to get rid of a small invading stack near Haithabu. Remember, we got the Great Wall from Nidaros so that's big GG points for combat in our turf.

To add insult to injury, it seems Ragnar was having problems with Barbs.

BarbTrouble0000.jpg


:lol:

The war continued. Roskilde fell, kept it, again for reasons above. Got a stack moving on Jelling and Birka. Ragnar is moving on Nidaros, but he's not attacking. I also worked this in...

mausoleum0000.jpg


It's a good wonder. We'll rip a golden age at some point and now we'll get an additional four turns. Machinery came in and I squeezed in Monotheism (1 turn) before moving towards engineering.

The rounds ends with Birka falling. However, Ragnar was able to finish civil service and trade it to De Gaulle for feudalism. Presently, he has one longbow. I had a catapult/axe combo luck out in the Birka siege against a longbow losing neither. Jelling has one, we have a stack there but I'm not certain the stack can take the city.

Our GG and a Great Scientist (just got him) came in this turn and are both in Madrid.

Both Haithabu and Birka have a military instructor. We should build our army in the south.

Workers built a lot of road this round. You'll find them scattered about and heading south. We do need more workers as well. Before we take out Raggy last city, use chariots and horse archers to scout around for them.

Dot Map

newdotmap0000.jpg


Finish off Ragnar. We've got unhappiness issues. Research is low and we're spread thin. It'll be a quick turn around though. I just switched civics to CS and OR. Switch back to slavery in five to ten turns to crack the whip. Then we'll beat up Peter. Just post any questions when you check out the save.

yeah, verbose :rolleyes:
 

Attachments

On a side note, I read your Dubya thread today. I found it hilarious. Was it worth the time. It was probably more fun to write than play.

I will not be able to play my next round until Saturday or Sunday, probably Sunday. Just busy the next handful of days with cramming in lots of summer plans before its gone. Or, I might be able to post a round in parts, playing a few turns at time. This round was 20 turns, probably a little too long, but I wanted to hit the goals of civil service/machinery and wipe out Ragnar in the west.

If you want, you can play the next two rounds. Perhaps get engineering, finish off Ragnar, and get some missionaries going into De Gaulle's turf. We'll talk about direction and take the next round to get the next tech and begin to straighten things out. The following round (mine) will be probably be more economic fix up and war prep with Ragnar.
 
Dubya was fun to write. The hard part is that I tend to over-commit to various threads. I'm happier when I have no more than two or three games going at once. I always feel guilty letting one game lie fallow ...

Ragnar is a tougher nut to crack than at first glance, isn't he? That aggressive trait is more powerful than it looks. Of course, in siege warfare it's less important, but in field battles aggressive is great for the defender.

I'll dotmap the eastern area ... I want to make sure we are able to work the tiles at the Aggressive City Site (tm).

I'll also try to get some horse archers out. I notice I tend not to build them and always wish I had.
 
I looked at your dotmap. I tried to get your red dot on the coast or the river but then it misses the wheat. If instead I put a city on the river, that leaves the wheat and furs to its own tundra city. So, long story short, I agree with you. However priority still has to be the Aggressive City Site (tm) to get the gold.

My goal this round will be to dispatch hornhead and get our economy straightened out.
 
I managed to get about six horse archers cranked out. We need a few more with flanking I/sentry I. They're so useful.

Glad you agree on the red dot. Unfortunately, it's not coastal but it will be a good city. I've come up with a list of what to do with our cities long term. We've reached a point in the game with a good base of cities and now they need jobs.

Every city, in my opinion, needs a granary,forge, barracks, and a courthouse plus religious buildings if we build the UoS and SM (which I think is possible). Since we're spiritual and can frequently switch back to the whip, this is very easy to do.

Most of the city list will be straightforward but let me point out what I call an 'assisstant' city. This is a city that usually lends its shared tiles to a better city. It is frequent to subject itself to the whip and drafting, can build workers, settlers, spies, and missionaries. I sometimes also use them to crank out the requirement buildings (university/bank/theatre) because it can do it faster than some cities that will actually get some use out of these buildings. It's merely a means of trying to get Oxford, Wall Street, and the Globe Theatre online a little faster.

A $$$ city is just that. Commerce plus multipliers.

Madrid - IW/WP big unit factory and our main barrack for war in the north.
Barcelona - OX/WS current build- forge then capital/palace
Seville - assisstant city
Cordoba - $$$ and boats
Toledo - HE/Red Cross - our main naval city, military instructors settled
Nidaros - units/assistant
Haithabu - another possible HE/WP city, lots of hills with a MI, units
Bjorgvin - $$$ and boats
Roskilde - junk city, draftable, missionaries, spies, boats
Birka - exclusively makes our mounted units, it has a MI
aggresive city site - $$$
New Jelling - $$$
SE city - boats, possible Moai statue city site, east coast naval yard

That still leaves open locations for the NE, NP, and GT. Seville is a possible GT site and I'm hoping Moscow or Paris will have enough forests to host the NE/NP. Saving the majority of our great people will segue great with the Mausoleum of Massolous.

The current ratio of cities leaves us a little thin on $$$ cities but most of the land to the north is pretty cottage friendly. We've currently got tons of hammers at our disposal so I think the ratio of commerce vs. production cities will right itself with more land.

Liberalism race: We should go for it and should be able to win it unless Darius or Willem or Hannibal is across the ocean. We currently have one great scientist who can be used to bulb paper. An emphasis should be placed on getting another scientist. Possible use heavy farms + the Great Library and caste system for the time being in Madrid to crank one out fast. Being able to trade for Philosophy would be great.

Last note: With engineering being our current tech, we should look at cranking out walls everywhere. It'll be quick and a boon if we can start building citadels right away, especially in our military cities. We've got stone so walls shouldn't take more than a couple of turns.

Anyway, not trying to hijack the game, just throwing a lot of detailed ideas out there.
 
I was putting some thought into our UU/UB and the outlook of this game, i.e. warfare.

I see us building a lot of conquistador and trebs and the desire to upgrade them to cavalry and cannons. Because of this we're going to need money and the building of the pyramids will be a boon. At that critical transition point where MT, Rifling, and Steel come online, we can switch to caste system and run scientists (where we have libraries and uni's) and possibly merchants (where we have markets, grocers, banks) almost to the point of starvation in many cities while running our slider at 0%. Over a period of say 10-15 turns (civics - Rep/bur or n'hood/CS/merc/pacifism), we'll stunt growth but have adequate research from specialists, crank out a few great people, and build up a huge treasury to mass upgrade our army. Conquistadors and trebs upgrade pretty cheap so it won't be too great a hit to our economy. Our cities will grow back reasonably fast because we'll need a couple of farms in each to support and extra specialist here and there.

A handful of shock conquistadors we won't want to upgrade, we can use them through that era as pikeman busters.
 
Ok I've played a bit of my fist round, will post it later tonight. Ragnar is destroyed. The immediate plan is to ramp up vertical growth to boost the economy and settle the southeast.

My question concerns Nidaros. You were looking for a possible National Epic / National Park city, and Nidaros fits the description with 10 forest tiles. Paris appears to have 11 forests, but De Gaulle may chop some of them before we get there. I say let's go ahead and made Nidaros the NE / NP city. I really need to make this decision now, because we have a bunch of workers captured from hornhead, and those trees are mighty inviting for chopping.

As far as the capital goes, why move it? Bureaucracy benefits hammers as much as commerce, and Madrid is very centrally located for when we conquer Russia.

We also need to nail down the Heroic Epic city. I'm thinking Haithabu.

So, in summary, I'd suggest:

NP/NE -- Nidaros
Capital IW/WP -- Madrid
Wall Street, Corp HQs -- Barcelona
Oxford -- Santiago, the city formerly known as Aggressive City Site (tm). This city has more cottageable land than Cordoba, and it's riverside grassland too.
GP Farm/Globe Theater (draft city) -- Cordoba -- now that we have Civil Service, I can farm it up. Pre-Biology it will support 7 specialists at size 16 or so, and give us the flexibility of the whip/draft.
Naval City -- Toledo
HE -- Haithabu

All other cities are commerce or "assistant" cities.
 
Nice job finishing off hornhead.

Nidaros - sounds good to me for a NP/NE city. Do you know what size it will get to. It didn't appear to have much food. I realize the specialist are free, but don't like tiles to go unworked if I can help it.

Barcelona - I was suggesting it as the capital because I've always felt the +50% commerce boost is more important than the hammers, especially at a time when research is vital. We're hitting the sweet spot on the tech tree where everything is good and the capital in Barcelona with all those villages/towns is the single greatest economic improvement we can make right now. Whip the forge and chop the palace and we'll have an additional 35-40 commerce. With Oxford/WS, the economic output will sustain our empire.

Santiago - is net (-8) food and has three desert tiles and also copper and incense on desert tiles. It's going to need farms, not cottages and eventually watermills under state property. With the possible idea of controlling our entire continent, state property is our best civic which rules corporations out. It's part of why I went after the Mausoleum of Maussollos, so we'd have something to do with late game great people.

The Globe Theatre in Cordoba sounds good to me if we farm it up. It will be a powerful drafting city and will be able to run many specialists and crank out workers fast if need be.

Toledo makes a great naval city but I'm more inclined to build the HE here. Combined with the Red Cross, it provides total sea domination.

Haithabu will get by just fine with a military academy but could get West Point. It would kick out 11 xp conquistadors 15 during a wartime switch to theocracy/vassalage, and 17 if we can drop another military instructor. Four promotions plus a 50% bonus to melee and a mounted unit that gets defensive bonuses!!! It has plenty of hills and won't have trouble churning out units.

Another thought is to make Madrid a wonder farm. We have plenty of cities to churn out units with the idea of running the Iron Works there later, so we could try to crank out as many wonders as possible (sankore, Taj, Minaret, Notre Dame!, etc). I mean, we have stone and marble, and I am easily tempted.

Moai statues still in the SE?

Seems like we have some differences in opinion here on national wonders. I've always been a big fan of making the capital the dominant research facility with a CE or hybrid, but I'm a little out of my element. Usually in an SE, it doesn't matter because I opt for vassalage or nationhood above bureaucracy.

But hey, this is just input; you're in charge right now. I'll back your plays.
 
Back
Top Bottom