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The Proper Start

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by TowerHigh, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. TowerHigh

    TowerHigh Chieftain

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    I think most players would probably agree that on a Pan/STD/Deity/STD map the proper start is Monument/Scout/Granary or Scout/Monument/Granary.

    My question has long been, which one is better or best?? Is one better for a certain VC??

    I did some work below trying to figure it out, but basically, it works out that you either get your first Border Expansion & first Social Policy 3 turns earlier, or you get 6-7 extra turns of your scout wandering around. Over the first 20 turns, I found that this translates to about 2-3 extra ruins, civs & cs met, or natural wonders found.

    So is it better to get BE & SP 3 turns faster or, potentially, 1 more ruin & 1 more civ/cs met?

    Details, if interested:

    Now, granted, there are a ton of variables... So I played 20 turns of an Alex/Pan/Std/Deity/Std w/ monument first. Marked down the turns for each building and each BE & SP. Then I played the same map again with the scout first and my units following the same path as the first game. If I got a culture ruin I restarted and passed right by it on the restart. Did this about 5 or 6 times and found the above results.

    Some other considerations...
    - +4 production starts could cause up to 4 turns difference in BE & SP while +6 production starts could cause a bit less than 3 turns difference on average.
    - Spain's wonder bonus probably puts the extra scout turns over the top in importance
    - America's sight bonus may also put the scout strategy over since they are more effective
    - Finding Civs, CS states, & Natural wonders in 20 turns vs. 26 or 27 turns is probably only going to matter in a small amount of games... Maybe 15 or 30 gold total.
    - Ruins vary in importance...
    - A tech ruin basically gives 38 beakers or 10 turns of science or since most capitols start at +4 beakers. Maybe 60 if you are wicked lucky and get like Calendar after already researching pottery first...
    - A culture ruins gives 20 culture, which pops your first CS starting at turn 6. (w/ monument I saw usually turn 13 and w/ scout I saw usually turn 16 or 17...)
    - A gold ruin gives about 50 gold, which translates to 1/2 a worker, or 1/4 of an archer buy later... 10 to 12 turns of normal gold production. maybe 2 or 3 turns quicker than just finding CS or selling embassies.
    - A Pop ruin gives a pop person. The bonus this provides varies wildly. Mostly though just speeds production & gold by 2 to 3 turns max...
    - A faith ruin basically gives a pantheon. The bonus depends but it's probably substantial.
    - A map ruin and a barb ruin are basically useless in this study

    So. It boils down to this for me. 3 turns ahead in Border Expansion & Social Policy every single game. Vs. 1 or 2 extra ruins of 38 beakers, 20 culture, 50 gold, a pop, a pantheon, a blank, or a blank.

    I don't have the time or wherewithall to do a cost analysis to find out the mathematical answer so I open it up to you all...

    Oh and I did this 4 times on marathon for 60 turns and found 6-11 turn sooner BE & SP, with the scout route finding 4-5 extra ruins, civ & cs met, & NWs...
     
  2. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    A subjective factor to consider: Having that scout 6-7 turns early means you're going to know your surroundings 6-7 turns earlier, which means you're going to be able to tailor your strategy 6-7 turns earlier. Conversely, if you're getting this knowledge 6-7 turns later, but getting your first SP 3 turns earlier, you may make a sub-optimal decision about your policy tree. Granted, if you know with 100% certainty that you're going to open Tradition, regardless of surroundings, for example, then this is less of an issue.
     
  3. sufficiency

    sufficiency King

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    The biggest problem I have with Monument first is that you almost have to know that you will be opening Liberty (or more rarely, Honor) on Turn 1. If you are going tradition Monument first is sort of stupid.
     
  4. Wargizmo

    Wargizmo Warlord

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    Also note that when you discover an AI, the beaker cost of your tech goes down if the AI already has that tech. So the earlier you discover the AI, the more beakers you save. This is mostly a factor in deity and immortal where the AI will almost certainly have more tech than you at the start.

    The other thing to consider is when you're grabbing ruins you're also denying the AI those ruins, so you're indirectly hurting the AI a little bit.

    I definitely think the scout start is superior, and the question is more whether you go scout -> worker or scout -> monument (or even scout -> scout), rather than opening anything other than scout.
     
  5. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    I do scout, scout, monument, granary. Or, scout, scout, monument, shrine, granary (below deity). More early scouts get me more early workers. By the way i am pretty sure sequence(s) that you're interested in isn't really decisive. What you lose there you can pick up in overall micro and smart decisions throughout the game. Certainly, things you mention are most important in early game, don't think the order matters much though..
     
  6. iconocast

    iconocast Prince

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    realy no double scout into shrine on deity? can someone explain why?
     
  7. Jelster

    Jelster Prince

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    This....

    In general I go Scout -> Monument -> Scout/warrior/archer (dependant on situation) I will go Scout -> Scout -> Monument if I spawn close to another AI and I want to get my scouts out and chase the ruins ASAP.
     
  8. brilhasti666

    brilhasti666 Chieftain

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    I'm not sure there is a "proper" way of doing anything. People play in different ways. I play as the Celts a fair bit and tend to go scout > monument > granary > great library (pop philosophy) > national college whilst stealing a worker from a CS. Then spam/buy pictish warriors/settlers/workers.
     
  9. Syailendra

    Syailendra Prince

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    A Great Library on Deity? Isn't it too risky?
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I dont do this on diety, but on lower I go Pottery first and switch to shrine about 90% of the time. First build is usually monument. You can often buy a scout between t10-20.
     
  11. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    interesting :goodjob:
     
  12. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    That is the old way. These days I am interested in opening with the wheel for hammers and hard built settlers. I have come to realize there is some wiggle room on the pantheon, you dont need it asap.
     
  13. ense7en

    ense7en n7

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    Scout > Monument, then either worker or granary or shrine, depending on whether i want to bother with religion, was able to steal a worker from CS, etc, etc. But always scout first unless i can tell from the beginning that i'm on a tiny island
     
  14. brilhasti666

    brilhasti666 Chieftain

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    Oh, Diety. Sorry didn't read that. Yes, in that case forget what I said :)
     
  15. Xahz

    Xahz Chieftain

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    If you don't go scout first you'll miss at least one, sometimes as much as three ruins. Definitely worth delaying the Monument for that. I go double scout on exploration-centric civs like Spain. Sometimes I'll build a warrior if I'm playing Aztecs or America or someone like that.
     
  16. Rameau's Nephew

    Rameau's Nephew Bureaucrat

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    So how does this change if you prefer to play with ruins off?

    I'd argue that first-built scout is still quite valuable, for the reasons futurehermit posted.
     
  17. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Really? I always thought this was removed from Civ5 :o
    Do you also get a "discount" if a civ you already know discover a tech before you do?
     
  18. michaeljhuman

    michaeljhuman Chieftain

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    With G&K I usually go shrine after monument
    I often start tradition to eliminate the need to build a monument
    I don't build granary unless there's tiles that have a bonus from a granary
    I prefer water mill over granary; If I build a water mill, I will build a granary at some point if there's resources which get the granary bonus; if no river, I build granary

    With a tradition start, and a river, it's something like...

    scout, worker, shrine, warrior, settler, water mill ( Exact order depends on circumstances)
     
  19. Woodszilla

    Woodszilla Chieftain

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    I prefer scout, scout, worker, shrine or shrine, worker depending on tiles. I'll build granary after the initial double scout if there are 2+ wheat,banana,deer (4+ food early is huge.) Then it totally depends on the surroundings. How close is the AI? What kind of tiles do I have? What kind of ruins have I found?

    I don't build a monument most of the time, I lean toward some variation of the Tradition 4 city start typically.
     
  20. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    Yes you do, just look on tech tree for tech costs, you will see some are cheaper then others. Most easily spotted on deity as AI are always ahead of you.
     

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