The question about there being 'wrong' statements by themselves

Kyriakos

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Maybe there can be some discussion on this...

It is another issue somewhat examined in the Theaetetos dialogue. In brief Socrates (while trying to attack the position he attributed to Protagoras) claims that there cannot be actually wrong statements or views by themselves (ie a person having a false view, but in earnest, will still be thinking of something other, true in itself or in his view).
Socrates argues that while one may easily (and routinely) be wrong in his view on things, he still will be wrong in thinking he was making a statement about the actual thing being discussed, but not wrong in what he thought he was discussing. Ie (to use a very very simple example) if one had in front of him a chair, but claimed it was a table, he would be wrong in our common defining system, but if he actually thought the chair was a table he would still be right in his own assumption. He would merely be talking about a different thing, of which he was right.

The question is tied to the ambiguity of what people more deeply regard as the terms they use, or even external realities. It rises from (source lost, but it is discussed in the dialogue) Protagoras' position that 'man is the meter of all things', which Socrates tries to attack as false but is aware of its tie to other established opinions on whether there is any stable or arcetypal reality/truth or not.

Another example, a bit more refined, is when some pupils go about writing a solution in a math problem, in some test.

Let's say the first pupil uses the formulae he was taught, and arrives at the solution asked for.

A second pupil is not good at remembering the lessons the test is based on, so makes a false progression there, but is (in theory) viewing the statements and terms in the test in a similar way as the first pupil was.

A third pupil sees the notions in the test differently, and builds up a solution according to what he thought the question was, a solution correct in his own impression of those terms, but false in the commonly agreed ones. We can say that the third pupil was in his own view also correct, and the phenomenon there is not about true or false in a system less defined than in the particular setting of the math or the test at that moment (keep in mind that math also is based on agreed terms, which aren't examined by pupils taught beyond a basic level, and ultimately are resting on unexamined axioms artificially bounding the system).

So the question on 'truth', when you are in a non-bounded system (eg abstract thought) is not as set, due to inherent ambiguities in the observers of that object examined as for its truth. Of course the other position in ancient Greek philosophy is the Parmenidian one, where some truth exists, eternal and changeless, but is entirely outside of any horizon of finite observers, such as humans.
 
I'm not well-versed in the Greek philosophers, but at least here, I think I disagree with Socrates and Parmenides. (I'm not sure I understand Protagoras; I may disagree with him, too.)

I see Socrates' point, to a degree. If one misunderstands the conversation or context, one might hold a view that would be correct in another conversation or context. But I don't think that means the view is, in its own way, correct in the conversation you're having. I wouldn't say that context is everything, but context certainly is something, and there are times when it's vital.

Parmenides' idea about an eternal truth that lies perpetually beyond our grasp sounds like hogwash to me. I think our history of exploration demonstrates that if one cannot see over the horizon, one builds a better ship and changes one's perspective. It may not be easy, or currently practical, but this is why we have universities and research hospitals and programs like NASA and CERN.

Your example of a mathematics test is interesting, because I think mathematics is one of the places where truths are the clearest-cut. Questions about the mathematics test, it seems to me, could be directed at the test, rather than at the mathematics. "What does 2+2 equal?" has a definite answer, but it may be valid to examine the question or the questioner: Does the student really need to know what 2+2 equals? What are we going to claim about the student based upon her answer? What are we going to use the answer for, once we have it? etc.
 
They are wrong because the missed the point of communication. Effective communication requires that the parties share an agreed upon scope and manner of communication. If a guy walks into a market and, apropos of nothing, starts chatting up the cashier about philosophy he's the one that is definitively in the wrong because he exceed the commonly agreed upon boundaries of communication within a market. The same is true of the third math student, he's wrong because he used a paradigm that was understood not to be tested. An example of this that should be readily understandable to those of us with a high school math education is a student who answered a question on a geometry test in a algebraic manner. He should have known to answer it geometrically. His analysis wasn't wrong, his thought pattern wasn't wrong, his answer wasn't wrong, but his means of communication was.

Greek philosophers live too much in their own heads and don't sufficiently consider how interacting in a social system works.
 
Just to clarify, i am not a greek philosopher :\ (i am a sophist, given i am paid).

Re the points raised by both of you:

the issue is whether any bounded system can inherently either examine usefully its boundaries and limits, and/or if it can support those limits as something other than arbiratry-ish (not arbitrary) axioms used to bound it. The conclusion in Plato is that any bounded system inherently creates the notion of a basis for it, but that basis is not examinable in the bounded system, despite the basis potentially being a topic of examination in a less bounded system.
But the less bounded a system gets, the less clear it is if you have proof of any statement within it being true. Eg we can agree that a circle's periphery consists of points equally distant from the center of that circle. But we aren't examining how each senses notions we use as atomic there: ie 'center', 'distance', 'equal', 'points' etc, cause those usually are not meant to be discussed in the confines of the bounded system. If you want to examine what a point is (other than the zero-dimensional connecting position of two non-parallel lines in eurclidian space) you have to be doing so outside of the actual geometry it is a foundamental part of, cause there it is an atom.

In the Theaetetos the general conclusion (the dialogue is more of a brief account of presocratic philosophy on this) by Socrates is that there is no true epistemic knowledge on non-bounded systems, cause we cannot incorporate any sub-atomic foundations of those in the study. Of course it is an issue of truth outside of the bounded system, not of truth within the confines of one. ;)
 
the issue is whether any bounded system can inherently either examine usefully its boundaries and limits, and/or if it can support those limits as something other than arbiratry-ish (not arbitrary) axioms used to bound it. The conclusion in Plato is that any bounded system inherently creates the notion of a basis for it, but that basis is not examinable in the bounded system, despite the basis potentially being a topic of examination in a less bounded system.
But the less bounded a system gets, the less clear it is if you have proof of any statement within it being true. Eg we can agree that a circle's periphery consists of points equally distant from the center of that circle. But we aren't examining how each senses notions we use as atomic there: ie 'center', 'distance', 'equal', 'points' etc, cause those usually are not meant to be discussed in the confines of the bounded system. If you want to examine what a point is (other than the zero-dimensional connecting position of two non-parallel lines in eurclidian space) you have to be doing so outside of the actual geometry it is a foundamental part of, cause there it is an atom.

That pays too little attention to the fact that the bound systems in question are created by people who know more than the boundaries of the system. The systems are simplifications of broader concepts. They are useful because they are simpler to convey and for students to initially understand. These system don't represent the real truth, but they come relatively close enough to the real truth to be very, very useful.

Maps are the perfect example. The people who put maps together know that the maps are not the territory being described and that the description is not a total description (and therefore is not the whole truth). The people that use maps know the same thing. Maps are usefully precisely because they are not the territory; they are useful because they are simplified versions.

You can't find truth on a map (unless you are looking around 33°8′1″N 107°15′10″W), but you aren't looking for truth on a map in the first place. Truth is not what the map is used for.

So technically those old Greeks are right, but it doesn't matter because they are expressing a truth everyone already knows.
 
That pays too little attention to the fact that the bound systems in question are created by people who know more than the boundaries of the system. The systems are simplifications of broader concepts. They are useful because they are simpler to convey and for students to initially understand. These system don't represent the real truth, but they come relatively close enough to the real truth to be very, very useful.

Maps are the perfect example. The people who put maps together know that the maps are not the territory being described and that the description is not a total description (and therefore is not the whole truth). The people that use maps know the same thing. Maps are usefully precisely because they are not the territory; they are useful because they are simplified versions.

You can't find truth on a map (unless you are looking around 33°8′1″N 107°15′10″W), but you aren't looking for truth on a map in the first place. Truth is not what the map is used for.

So technically those old Greeks are right, but it doesn't matter because they are expressing a truth everyone already knows.


At any rate what you note is not even valid in the context you projected it into: it is not like we have bounded knowledge of axiom-induced limits (or anything after those) of any given system. Eg in math it is not like you know what infinity is; it is something defined by not being part of any set progression or finite sum. Likewise with the antithetical notions, those of either the singular point (which pretty much acts as a non-divisible atom in any system utilising it for some examination) or of zero.
To argue - as you do- that we know far more of such atomic parts used to define a bounded system than we let others know in any context is quite presumptuous- let alone without any backing of such a statement being logical beyond some trivial matter which is not the topic here.
Likely the most common source of making an error like that is having an agenda against something, and this is rather glaring by the end of your post, so keep in mind the thread was RD'd exactly to avoid this needless attitude :deal:
 
If you can't take the heat then don't subject your thoughts to critical examination.

We do know more about the territory then we put on in the map. Bounded systems are bounded because they make things easier. It is easier to discuss a limited model that doesn't encompass, or avow to encompass, the totality of what it represents.

That doesn't mean the model is inaccurate, it merely means that the model doesn't purport to represent the omission. The same is true of the ambiguity in terms people use to describe things. There is no universal description of one thing from every angle. You may describe the following object illustrated below by any number of means: practical, value, artistry, natural source, soul, etc. No one man could master all of those descriptions.

CC-01_large.jpg


The practical inability to make such a universal description does not invalidate any one description. All of the descriptions are true, they just aren't complete.

Expanding this out to the scope of human knowledge, the fact that some things may be outside of human knowledge, either immediately or forever, does not invalidate the knowledge we do have.
 
Wouldn't a Zen master describe the chair by sitting on it and grinning at you? Or maybe by breaking it up for firewood?

Anyway. Trivialism says there are no wrong statements. Or does it say that all statements are true?

(Including the statement that some statements are false.)
 
If you can't take the heat then don't subject your thoughts to critical examination.

We do know more about the territory then we put on in the map. Bounded systems are bounded because they make things easier. It is easier to discuss a limited model that doesn't encompass, or avow to encompass, the totality of what it represents.

That doesn't mean the model is inaccurate, it merely means that the model doesn't purport to represent the omission. The same is true of the ambiguity in terms people use to describe things. There is no universal description of one thing from every angle. You may describe the following object illustrated below by any number of means: practical, value, artistry, natural source, soul, etc. No one man could master all of those descriptions.

CC-01_large.jpg


The practical inability to make such a universal description does not invalidate any one description. All of the descriptions are true, they just aren't complete.

Expanding this out to the scope of human knowledge, the fact that some things may be outside of human knowledge, either immediately or forever, does not invalidate the knowledge we do have.

Maybe you should have a look at the topic, being about false statements being statements often true in the particular (and false) context the person having them applies them to, but failing in the specific context of the topic he was asked to discuss or examine. Cause that is just what you do here.
And there was no need for a living example of this oxymoron either..
 
Sure, the Zen master may well do either of those things, neither of which are total. Sitting on the chair and smiling certainly does tell you something about the chair, but it doesn't tell you about, say, the splat back here. Nor does a rundown of the splat back tell you about any number of other things about the chair.
 
As far as the essential chairness of it goes, though, sitting in it describes it rather eloquently, imo.
 
As far as the essential chairness of it goes, though, sitting in it describes it rather eloquently, imo.

Experiencing the chair (eg by sitting on it) creates a sense of it, but a sense obviously tied to human (and furthermore individual) experience of it. The chair by itself is not having to be defined by any particular observer, so if an observer who did not have the sense of touch was observing the chair he would obviously have no account of it in such a manner, yet the object is the 'same' for him and a human.

Remember ( ;) ) Founes, the person of memory, in that story by Borges :) He found it rather hard to accept that a dog in his yard was the same in the morning and in the evening, or when viewed from one angle or another, or when there was a passing shadow on it cast by a cloud, etc. And while abstraction there works in a human/set observer, and those instances are still deemed as the 'same' object (the dog there), it would not work for a very different observer.
 
I am not going to pretend to fully understand this but as I understand it you are basically discussing whether there is such a thing as Objectivity true or false and whether this applies to abstracts the first is obviously true there is such a thing as true or false right and wrong.

The REAL problem is how this applies to statement because some things are objective and some things are subjective, but trying to figure out which is which is a headache sometimes.
 
I'm going with everything being subjective. How about you?

But is that also subjective?

And any part of it? (ie also what you want to communicate, which is that all communication also is subjective, etc).

Then there has to rise a notion of something stable, be it just points of connection within the infinite lines of each subjective statement.
 
I'm going with everything being subjective. How about you?

Lets go with a really obvious statement

2+2 = 4

Subjective?

Or even pi = 3.14159

Subjective?

EDIT: the problem is some things are not subjective and Maths as I understand it is an abstract
 
I really can't comment.

But just show me something objective, can you?

edit: yup, those are both subjective, imo. It's entirely possible to make 2 and 2 equal 22. And the value of pi is intrinsically subjective. What you've quoted there is a subjective approximation to pi.
 
I really can't comment.

But just show me something objective, can you?

edit: yup, those are both subjective, imo.

Within a bounded (even if indistinct) system you can have 'true statements'. Eg in the (very) bounded math system of (let's say) eucledian geometry it is always true that the pythagorean theorem stands.
Moreover, in the (very abstract, but still) bounded system of human thinking and communication, it is true that a computer is evidently different from a chair, or that (in normal conditions) some foods taste sweeter than others.
But those are bounded systems, be they more distinct or more abstract. They aren't systems including non-human observers. Which ties to the axiom of 'man is the meter of all things' etc, which does not claim to be anything but an axiom.
 
I cannot show you something objective because we are not absolute we are finite our understanding is finite and therefore subjective.

EDIT: but this does not mean that there is not such a thing as objective its just we are incapable of recognizing it in most cases
 
Within a bounded (even if indistinct) system you can have 'true statements'. Eg in the (very) bounded math system of (let's say) eucledian geometry it is always true that the pythagorean theorem stands.
Moreover, in the (very abstract, but still) bounded system of human thinking and communication, it is true that a computer is evidently different from a chair, or that (in normal conditions) some foods taste sweeter than others.
But those are bounded systems, be they more distinct or more abstract. They aren't systems including non-human observers. Which ties to the axiom of 'man is the meter of all things' etc, which does not claim to be anything but an axiom.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that subjective statements aren't true statements?

I'd be inclined to disagree, and suggest that only subjective statements are true.
 
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