The RA Exploit Question.

[KrikkitTwo]

The best would be for the RA to be totally random, but if it selects a tech you have invested in, all of the invested beakers become overflow.

It would still slightly favor backfilling (to prevent it from giving you a cheap tech, finish researching the cheap techs before it pops

 

[Arsenic Steel]

Think of it this way, you are researching Horseback Riding because you know you have another set of scientists who are working on Astronomy. Just because they don't show up on the research tree doesn't mean they aren't there.

but the point of civV RAs is not to know what tech will be discovered at the end.
Taking advantage of the mechanics so that you turn a random-esqe outcome into a sure-thing is an exploit.

 

[Ashwind]

The best would be for the RA to be totally random, but if it selects a tech you have invested in, all of the invested beakers become overflow.

It would still slightly favor backfilling (to prevent it from giving you a cheap tech, finish researching the cheap techs before it pops

My thoughts exactly. simple and neat.

 

[Camikaze]

I think a simple rule of thumb for "is it an exploit?" is .... does the AI play that way? No? then we're exploiting a game mechanic and have an unfair advantage.

...Course maybe using the CivV AI as a yardstick is not such a good idea

Yeah, any number of things in the game could be considered exploitative due to this. I fail to see why using your advantage in being a human rather than being an AI is exploitative, so much as it is simply playing the game.

The best would be for the RA to be totally random, but if it selects a tech you have invested in, all of the invested beakers become overflow.

It would still slightly favor backfilling (to prevent it from giving you a cheap tech, finish researching the cheap techs before it pops

See I think this would be pretty unfair. In the example in the OP, you might get to save 4 turns of research, or you might get to save 29 turns of research. That's a massive difference that you would have no control over. At least now you can have control over it. Allowing the player to have control over such massive advantages/disadvantages is pretty important.

What would be a better idea is if the RA gave you a certain science boost, say, +500 . It would have to make the wait worth it, but it would be fairer. Or maybe if it gave you a percentage boost for research over the period of the agreement.

 

[Bob_]

Are you all sure that you dont get the tech you alrdy have started to research?? I am pretty sure it happened several times to me that i got the tech I was researching right then..!

 

[Bob_]

What would be a better idea is if the RA gave you a certain science boost, say, +500 . It would have to make the wait worth it, but it would be fairer. Or maybe if it gave you a percentage boost for research over the period of the agreement.

That would mean u get like 5 techs in the beginning and 1/20 tech at the end... Or: u pay 200 for 50 turns of research in the beginning or 350 for less than one turn of research.

Cleary unbalanced. Perhaps that science boost could increase each era?

 

[unclethrill]

you're using the rules of the system in way unintended to your advantage.
whether you want to call it an exploit or not is really just a semantic argument.
do you also do a continuous luxury trade/pillage/repair cycle?

how to fix the RA exploit is a difficult problem, but i do think the game might be better without the need to micromanage your research like this for optimal results.

Based on the fact that in my last game, I paid for 2 RA in a row that made it to within 5 turns and then my partner Dow'ed me and I got neither a free tech nor my money back, I think that any way to work the rules is fair game. The AI is currently `stupid` but that doesn't change the fact that we play to win. If the computer can take advantage (intentional or not) then we need to use what advantages we can too.

 

[Camikaze]

That would mean u get like 5 techs in the beginning and 1/20 tech at the end... Or: u pay 200 for 50 turns of research in the beginning or 350 for less than one turn of research.

Cleary unbalanced. Perhaps that science boost could increase each era?

Well yeah, 500 was just an example. It would be more appropriate to change with the era, just as the cost does.

 

[Frozensky]

Wouldn't call it an exploit, as much as simply "too strong".

Solution? Research agreements always complete the tech requiring the lowest number of beakers to complete.

This way you'd get the maximum gains from research agreements if your tech research is balanced. Beelining is still available to the player, but it should now represent inefficient research in order to get a tech/wonder/unit earlier than the other civs.

 

[Deussu]

Research agreements at this time feel very very odd.

I'd implement a system where both participants receive additional beakers. To balance it a bit, it'd start from a negative value; decreasing science output temporarily. For example for a 10 beaker research agreement it'd start from -5 beakers, increasing by 1 each turn until it reaches 10. Renewing or upgrading the research agreement would start it over again from the negative amount.

 

[elthrasher]

you're using the rules of the system in way unintended to your advantage.

Could you offer some evidence that this wasn't intended? The Civilization series always offers different levels of micro. With workers, you can automate them, you can manually control them or you can get way down into the weeds and start pre-chopping things and pre-building roads. With research, you can just slow-tech the techs you want, you can add in RAs to get a few extra random techs or you can really micro it so RAs give you what you want.

Now show me where some developer or representative indicates this wasn't intended. If they didn't intend for people to play like this, then bad on them because it is trivial to figure out how to control your RAs given the rule that you will (usually) not get a tech in which you've invested research. You don't need to be Nostradamus to foresee that.

 

[elthrasher]

Think of it this way, you are researching Horseback Riding because you know you have another set of scientists who are working on Astronomy. Just because they don't show up on the research tree doesn't mean they aren't there.

I love the idea of a bunch of scientists trying to figure out how to ride a horse. I dunno, maybe if you hang from its torso. Let's try that. Getting kicked in the face? Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

 

[LegionSteve]

What would be a better idea is if the RA gave you a certain science boost, say, +500 .

Well yeah, 500 was just an example. It would be more appropriate to change with the era, just as the cost does.

I would much prefer it to work like that. In fact I wish they had made Great Scientists do that too. Maybe then they wouldn't have had to virtually remove them from the game to try to 'balance' them

 

[Ashwind]

If they intend RAs to 'allow' picking techs, just pop up a menu to allow picking it. Isn't it supposed to be streamlined and not introduce additional pointless micro?

 

[elthrasher]

If they intend RAs to 'allow' picking techs, just pop up a menu to allow picking it. Isn't it supposed to be streamlined and not introduce additional pointless micro?

That isn't what I said. See the different levels of micro I pointed to. Nobody is clamoring for a "pre-chop all forests, then chop them all the turn I unlock some wonder so it's built instantly" button. Some players enjoy this depth of micro. Personally, I find it tedious, but it's part of the Civilization series.

As far as it being streamlined, that didn't happen. Auto-workers still completely suck. City governors are still inefficient. The micro is still there.

 

[m4gill4]

That's the system they gave us, you are manipulating the given system for maximum benefit. For those who would call you a cheater, I'd tell them hate the game not the player.

 

[Bob_]

Well yeah, 500 was just an example. It would be more appropriate to change with the era, just as the cost does.

Thinking about it again, its not just a great idea. I mean we have to look at what this system favors and this is being in late eras as early as possible (as for social policies). Then everyone will rush into medivial as fast as possible and get the early techs with one or 2 RA.

 

[Ovidious]

Maybe RA's should just pop you a Great Scientist when they come due. I could live with that

 

[vexing]

Could you offer some evidence that this wasn't intended?

if you've somehow deluded yourself into believing it was intended, there's no point arguing.
in the civilopedia it says "you each get a free Tech, chosen randomly by the game."

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah, any number of things in the game could be considered exploitative due to this. I fail to see why using your advantage in being a human rather than being an AI is exploitative, so much as it is simply playing the game.

See I think this would be pretty unfair. In the example in the OP, you might get to save 4 turns of research, or you might get to save 29 turns of research. That's a massive difference that you would have no control over. At least now you can have control over it. Allowing the player to have control over such massive advantages/disadvantages is pretty important.

What would be a better idea is if the RA gave you a certain science boost, say, +500 . It would have to make the wait worth it, but it would be fairer. Or maybe if it gave you a percentage boost for research over the period of the agreement.

The +500 science (era dependent) might work... I'd still assign it to a random tech. (with the remainder being overflow)