The Reintroduction of Eras, FFH2 Style.

[QES]

A long time ago I posed this idea, so for a few of you, it might wreak of undeath - as it's flesh slough's off and it ambulates toward your noggin in what certainly can only be the hope for a feast on grey matter.

No matter (heh), i push onward none the less.


I personally like "Stages." You know, you work small, then you advance/better. And you graduate to a new realm, a new area - a new venue, etc. Civ2 and up had this idea of eras and would change graphics accordingly. I have something similar in mind, but the principle and 'chief' idea is that as the world gets larger, things act larger.

What's this mean?

Well in the beginning of a game, your view is limited and your map is wholly centered on you. This represents the first level of play. Eventually the entiremap will be swarmed by your minions (if successful) or your enemies (if you're not.) This is the last stage.


I'm here to advocate for a 3-4 point transition inbetween the scales of map, to be reinforced (and in-fact, enforced) by terrain modifications.


I heartily Advocate for the 'tiered terrain system' that i'm sure many of you are now instandly recoiling and looking for the little 'x' at the top of the window and quickly as your mouse can carry you.


The idea is this:


There are terrain that are simply impassable until appropriate technologies are developed. Then your units may walk on them normally.


These terrain would be layerd inward (i see that peoples mapping skills have increased GREATLY - so maybe this is a possibility).

The general idea is that, like ocean, there should be several tiers of 'obstacle' terrain that require advances to navi-, or circumnavigate.

We already have 2. The sea, and the ocean. The sea/shore is one boundry, with the ocean being the second level.

I simply wish to include this in the normal game. I think we've already got 1 - Mountains. We simply need one or two more (common) and we've got it.

Tiers:

Haunted Woods: Haunted Wood are impassable terrain until Hunting is developed. Haunted Wood are a Forest Varient (darker/creapier looking). However it would have an chance of cool rare resources that would be superior in nature to normal forest resources.

Bog: Bog are impassable terrain until Hidden Paths is developed. (However it's still slow going from there.) Bog would be a jungle variant. However it would have an increased chance of various new resources that would be superior to jungle-found resources.

*additional*

Chasm: (Inverted Mountain Range) Chasm are impassable terrain until Engineering is Developed. And then only workers may walk on it - and only to build roads/bridges.

*supplemental/agumented*

Mountain/Mountain Range: Mountains are impassable until Mountineering is developed. Mountineering is a new technology which offshoots from mining which allows for 4(6) promotions. Two of which are exclusive to dwarves.
The first is "mountain mine." This allows workers to dig deep mines into the mountain +4 +2 - these take a long time to build.
The second is "mountain path" and allows workers to build roads on mountains - but it sacrifices the worker (as a spell.)
The third is "Mountaineering I" and allows units to move through mountains (consumes all movement).
The fourth is "Mountaineering II" which reduces mountain movement to 2.

The Fifth (Exclusive to dwarves) replaces "Mountain Mine" with "Dwarven Deep Mine". Dwarven Deep mines give +6 +3 and +1
These take take an extremely long time to build.
The Sixth (Exclusive to dwarves) replaces "Mountain Path" with "Dwarven Tunnel". Dwarven tunnels do not destroy the worker when built (but take a long time to complete). And any dwarven unit using/on them is "hidden."
Dwarven Tunnels may also be built in Hills, and can only be seen by dwarven civilizations (other civs dont even see the graphic.)

Also - once a road is built - any unit may traverse the tile. This needed clarifying.


Just a rebirth of once-dead thoughts (and some new stuff.)
-Qes

 

[Willgar]

Really interesting and inventive idea. Think it would work well in multiplayer but i am guessing that the AI would not be able to handle based on how badly it handles seaborne colonisation. Also, for random maps, i imagine it would be pretty difficult to generate a true tiered map.

The idea of breaking up the traditional land rush i think would be beneficial but the complexity of this system i think would be a real challange.

 

[QES]

Really interesting and inventive idea. Think it would work well in multiplayer but i am guessing that the AI would not be able to handle based on how badly it handles seaborne colonisation. Also, for random maps, i imagine it would be pretty difficult to generate a true tiered map.

The idea of breaking up the traditional land rush i think would be beneficial but the complexity of this system i think would be a real challange.

A scaled back version would only have the 'unique' terrain spawn sporatically within the terrain it supplements.

Huanted forest would only appear maybe a few tiles worth in the midst of a wide forest.

A chasm might be anywhere.

Even if just 'layered' it'd not have to be strictly tiered.

Besides, the idea is to ****** technology some (through prevention of immediate discourse with other civilizations) but not production. This way the conflicts in smaller scale could get more attention than the bum rush to the end.
-Qes

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

too much playing Spores recently uh?

j/k , this is a really nice idea. pretty sure you're giving Kael something to think about for the upcming versions of ffh2, which is always good

 

[arcticnightwolf]

hmmm .... looks interesting

 

[marioflag]

In my opinion they are all nice ideas...i would personally change some of the suggestions made to Mountain or Mountain Range.

I personally find that this implementation would limit the role of barrier which is given to mountains in civ4 vanilla and FfH2.

Crossing mountains should remain the less preferable path for your units, which should always choose a easier path unless it is not possible to reach a destination without crossing a mountain.So in my opinion it would be better if units crossing mountains should be blocked on that tile for at least 5 turns on a Normal Speed with Mountaineer I and decreasing it to 2 turns with Mountaineer II.Perhaps Dwarven could get a Mountaineer III promotion which allows them to cross mountain consuming all movement costs.

Deep Mine and Deep Dwarven Mine should give really high resources but they should also cost a lot in term of mainteinance costs otherwise they would be spammable. So i would add 5% city mainteinance cost for mine to the city which is using it.
So that is not always attractive to build them. As you said they need really long time to be built.

So in general i really like your suggestion but Mountains should remain barriers and be highly inhospitable terrain

 

[Skitters]

Seems an interesting development, certainly would make it interesting if it wasn't as easy to map Erebus

Not sure why a mountain would provide those kind of benefits though. At best I'd keep them at the same hammers (but no food) as a normal hill - the benefit being that a 0 value tile suddenly has a value. However, I would perhaps be inclined for Mountains to have higher chance of popping Gems/Gold/Iron/Mithril (...and on the off chance that Mushrooms were generated there perhaps it would be an exmple where a mine doesn't destroy the mushroom?)

I quite like the Chasm idea....perhaps those pesky Goblins can dump their waste there instead.

Bog to me implies more of a cool climate wetland - peat being the obvious potential bonus resource. For a jungle variant I think you'd be heading towards Fall Further's 'Deep Jungle'

Haunted Wood - not sure about - sort of like the idea, but I can't help but think that if it bothered people they would simply have a bit a party dedicated to Bhall...

- perhaps instead, up until Hunting, it would still be possible for it to be entered, but for it to be infested with Giant/Baby Spiders/Wolf/Wolf Pack...each time you enter a tile there being a chance a Spider/wolf is spawned?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

haunted/inospitable forests having a chance to spawn animals sounds like a nice idea. i.e. you can cross them, but be prepared to pay a blood price for that

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Meh, thematically I dunno why it would be harder or more rewarding to mine a mountain, really.... its not like the mountains are flying. If you want to mine it, you just walk up to it like any hill and start to dig.... no one says you have to build your mine 1/2 way up

The fact that you can't enter or mine mountains really just tells me their real role is to provide barriers in the world that only certain (flying & druids) units can cross and I think it does a fine job in that respect.

The bog and haunted woods I like though... not sure how it could be coded but I don't think it necessarily needs to be rare/hidden inside jungles or forests. I think the game needs some more barrier terrains and allowing crossing based on tech is an interesting way to go about it.

IE in the beginning you can be an island unto yourself if you happen to be surrounded by bogs and haunted forests until one day, strangers appear that have figured out how to navigate the swamps safely. If they're violent, they make lightning fast raids from the bogs while your own warriors shake their fists impotently at the edges.

 

[xienwolf]

The tiered setup would actually be fairly trivial to setup, for a single tier system. If you wanted to have 3 tiers that is trickier.

To set it up for a single tier system, you make all naturally available terrains (for random mapscript placement) be ones which require a Tech to become passable. Then you insert the normally traversable terrain in the StartingPlot Normalization Routine. I would say extend the range on them to affect up to 5 tiles from the initially allocated starting plot, then many Civs would be connected to nearby neighbors, but large chunks of the world would remain locked until the appropriate tech.


AI wouldn't have much of an issue with this either. There would be no need for a special transport (which is where it struggles with Oceans), just for a certain Tech, then you are able to travel further.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, but having a Religious Tech unlock access to a portion of the map would NOT be a good idea. So something other than Hidden Paths for access to Bogs. I'd hate to force the entire world to follow FoL at some point in their life.

 

[avalonnn]

For bogs: cartography? (direction finding).

Also -- what do people think about the mountains of Erebus? Aren't they supposed to separate civs to create a game that allows the AI to be a builder in SP? I've rarely played on Erebus, but it _is_ an interesting map and would be less interesting if you could cross the mountains.

Mines on mountains, especially mines that take a long time, are, I think, a good idea. but if mountains are impassible, the worker would have to die to build the mine.

Maybe add some risk to mining a mountain, an event like Volcano called landslide that destroys some improvements but does not harm the city?

 

[Blackmantle]

this sounds like an excellent idea for a modmod overall
(Exept for the swamps / bogs marshland / part. Those bogs are dearly missed in the main mod for feel / visuals in my book. Could be passable at all / easier by promotion / tech / for advanced recon / clan of embers. Could be any wet flatlands. If they are scarce enough / found only in vast expanses of wetlands (riversides / floodplains / costal rivers and the likes) / Jungles that should not create to much hassle for the AI and offer some place for lairs which are not all so easily cleaned up after Marnoks Lairs get implemented into the Main Mod in 0.34. As well as provide the clan with an interesting new terrain-based advantage.).

Could! add (reason why it isn't all so clearly positive with the base suggestion is explained in the next paragraph) a nice kick to erebus / creation and simmilar mapscripts (which allready feature seculed valleys sorrounded by mountain terrain. Which allready does accomplish parts of just what you intend to get with your suggestion.)


Mountain passage / Mining should come far later though imo (for balancing reasons as well as not to ruin the flavor of mountain heavy maps / diminish the advantage of various units like druids / flying things for example which can move impassable which might turn such a modmod into a negative. Well intent given or taken...)
An offshot to Iron Working or a simmilar tech (perhaps even as late as Engineering or later) might sound ok. Otherwise Mountains might become prime estate for settling from the beginning and they really shouldn't be. (not even for dwarves which lorewise left their mountain underhome for various reasons let alone the Luichirp. The Yields for mountain-mines sound fine for an offshot after Iron Working / around the time of Engineering with a slight advantage to dwarves.)

The dwarven tunnels thing might sound a bit messy codewise (especially if double/tripple-improvements should be implemented), but if it can be done without to much hassle more power to that idea...

I have to second Xienwolfs reservations about religious techs as terrain enablers.

 

[schlalex]

I love your ideas about the mountains.
Finally, there would be a good use for them!

 

[Polobo]

How would rivers fit into this? I could see where ANY tile adjacent to a river (with fishing/sailing maybe) is passable since the mover could just build rafts. I like that the rivers in Erebus usually end up following the various passage ways formed by impassable terrain but still think they are not as strategically important as they could be.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

A lot of things suggested here are not exactly possible--at least until we get Xienwolf to figure out how to change the DL to make them possible.


Promotions cannot effect a units build orders. There are several C++ blocks preventing building improvements in Peaks (even for workers that can move impassible), but I don't think they would be all that hard to remove. I don't think improvements can grant GPP. Invisibility only working on specific improvements/routes would be nice, but the ability does not yet exist. I don't think the graphics engine has the ability to let us add anything like an "inverted mountain," and even the best DLL modder couldn't change that.

A lot of this is very similar to things I proposed when I first joined CFF, and a lot is similar to the Hinterlands mechanic that Kael and the team were discussing, which I still think is a good idea. I like the idea in general, but am not really a fan of the specifics of the plan.


I don't have a problem making certain religions have advantages as crossing certain terrains that other civs couldn't cross/would have more difficulty crossing. I was actually thinking that in my modmod there would be an RoK only promotion (which dwarves could get sooner than other units) letting units move through peaks.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

now you've made me curious about that Hinterland mechanic care to explain how that would work ?

 

[QES]

As always my threads are meant to spawn smarter people's ideas. Nothin' more.

I cant code a damn. I just have itches and can explain those itches in verbiage form.

I just like the idea of more 'types' of terrain over all, and for them to have uses.


As for dwarves and mountains.

I personally think that at least the dwarves should be able to do something with mountains.

I think "mines of moria" constantly when i think dwarves. The idea generally is that bedrock is something normal civs cant get through but dwarves are stubborn and try (and succeed) anyway. "Deep Mines" could be used for ALL SORTS of tasty events.

Just a thought. Also - flying creatures should be able to go on mountains, period.
-Qes

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

flying creature ARE able to go on mountains actually

and although I'm no LOTR kind of guy , I agree that it would be great to let the dwarves dig tunnels trough peaks with gunpowder. it fits their theme and it would lead to some interesting strategies unique to them.

 

[QES]

flying creature ARE able to go on mountains actually

and although I'm no LOTR kind of guy , I agree that it would be great to let the dwarves dig tunnels trough peaks with gunpowder. it fits their theme and it would lead to some interesting strategies unique to them.

Well "flying units" were unheard of back when.

And i've only had a flying unit once - a gryphon, and didnt try much with it. So admittedly this was just a 'throw in' comment.

Good to know though.
-Qes

 

[slowcar]

i miss the deep mines from the CtP-series that could be improved over time.