The Right & Obsession with Maniliness?

[caketastydelish]

To me, this obsession over 'manliness' is not only rather childish (to be as cliche as possible) but it speaks to what I've been observing and recently noticing in the American male lately.

American Men, in general, are essentially children. You can see it in the ads that are targeted towards them (Old Spice), the cars that American men drive (big pickup trucks, Mustang/GTO/Whatever "muscle" cars), cultural phenomena (Chuck Norris jokes), soap with packaging that's way more masculine than any soap should deserve, all of which are building up the cultural ideal of what a man is. Even the way they behave where they have to 'protect their honor' or 'be a man' when it comes to conflicts that end in prison time which almost always can be best resolved and avoided by a little humility. These may be small things but small things do stack up, as comes the phrase "the straw that broke the camels back."

All of this coupled with American men essentially being pampered, idolized even, in comparison to women and minority groups to where you don't see the American Man as anything other than the standard default makes the reaction of the American Man to anything that could possibly be seen as them "losing" something to anyone probably leads to this affinity towards their perception of 'manliness' and probably their vigorous and ever escalating obsession over it, something of which we're seeing now with the current administration's claims that America is 'losing' and 'winning' when international diplomacy and relations are far more complicated than a game.

The problem is this thing has probably been happening for decades now. Childish men raising even more childish men raising even more childish men, passing down attitudes on what they believe it is to be a man. Through this, it could be seen that the defense of manliness is also seen as a defense for paternal knowledge and honor as well, adding another level of vigorous defense that has the high potential of a violent confrontation.

But then again, that's just my opinion.

Might I say stuff white people like? To be more specific, you're in Seattle (I grew up somewhere else). Almost everyone is either White or Asian, and almost all of them are educated and well off. When I say 'well off' not necessarily rich, but crime rates are very low and the average income is high relative to everywhere else. You probably have no idea what it's like to be stuck in the cycle of poverty, and that's where these 'childish crimes' are coming from. Men (or women) usually don't commit crimes to be badass, they commit crimes because they're desperate to make a living. Spain, with their 'running of the bulls' thing would be more of the childish macho man thing you're talking about.

I am definitely what I would call a 'macho man' and I don't give a damn about any of the things you're talking about. I don't drive a muscle car or pickup truck. I don't give a crap about old spice. You're also leaving out that there are PLENTY of products that cater to women. Just as there is old spice, there is plenty of advertisements for female hygienics, probably even more if we're honest. Chuck Norris jokes are just that: jokes. I can't even believe you used that as a legitimate example, not that any of them are legitimate anyway.

All of your assumptions in your second paragraph are also incorrect. You haven't provided any examples or proof of your claims anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Finally, I will put my Kurt Cobain rant here (copy and pasted from my blog). Since you're 1) from Seattle to and 2) he was one of those 'macho men are childish and you should be more like me lol'

Spoiler The Kurt Cobain rant/macho men aren't so childish :

Cobain insulted nearly every other musician from the same town as him with the ‘grunge’ label, when the worst crime they ever did was try to make a living doing what they love just as much as he did.

As one example of many, the people in Pearl Jam (who he ragged on the most) were just as liberal as he was and stuck up for women, minorities, and homosexuals just as much as he did. In fact, Pearl Jam refused to participate in Ticketmaster because they thought it was ripping off their fans, even though they ended up taking a huge cut in profits. This is something Nirvana never did, by the way. It reminds me of how the British singer Adele claims to support the Labor party (the British hard left) but then didn’t want to pay property taxes on her house as soon as she got rich. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Of course, conservatives have this kind of hypocrisy too, but I’ll get to that another day.

Being against “hairy, sweaty, macho, redneck men, who rape” (quote by him) is a cause I can get behind, but I doubt Eddie Vedder hurt anybody other than Ticketmaster. Cobain would call any other band a “sellout” even though his own band was signed to a major label, topping the charts, and selling albums like hotcakes just as much as anyone else’s.

Similar to his hero John Lennon, he thought himself as an icon for the poor. I say ‘working class hero’ my ass. Why? He barely shared his money with anybody. He was in a position to give a *lot* of that away to good causes, and he didn’t. Now I personally am conservative and don’t like to share my wealth, but I’m just going to be honest straight up rather than be a hypocrite.

Maybe people think it’s in bad taste to bad mouth someone who killed themselves, but he deserves it. There are lots of people in a much worse position than him who end up killing themselves, and that’s one thing. This guy had access to all the best doctors, therapists, and everything else on God’s green earth. He wouldn’t listen to anybody but would insult everybody. In fact, I think his suicide was incredibly selfish. It was no doubt traumatizing for Courtney Love to lose her husband, but on top of that it brought up a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists who are determined to believe she killed him (without anything to back that up) and turned her life into a living hell. I also think it’s unfair for their daughter to have to grow up without a father. What a jackass.

As a side note, let me add something else. He said things on several occasions where he associated masculinity and ‘machoness’ with being a misogynist and homophobe. I want to dispute this.

Here’s my idea (probably most people’s idea) of what ‘macho’ means. It could mean a guy who goes to the gym, lifts and gets ripped. It could mean they listen to hard rock like Linkin Park. A band I follow very closely, and I’ve never once heard them say something misogynistic or homophobic. It could mean they play a hard contact sport. It could say that they are in the military. These are all lifestyle choices. Something that is not the definition of being a misogynist or homophobe. I would also argue that raping a woman is the least ‘macho’ thing in the world that a man could possibly do.

It seems to me that he was making broad overgeneralizations based on a few macho guys that he met. People like him make guys like me not comfortable with the word ‘feminist,’ which I think is the opposite of what he was actually trying to accomplish. Hell, Village People, a gay rights band (most famous for YMCA), released a popular song called ‘macho man.’ With a music video that shows men in the gym working out. Just being a buff, badass dude doesn’t mean you’re prejudiced against anybody.

Oh, and here’s one other thing. Actual quote by Kurt Cobain (yes, this is real, look it up) “I feel compelled to say f-- you f-- you to those of you who have absolutely no regard for me as a person. You have raped me harder than you’ll ever know. So again I say fudge you although this phrase has totally lost its meaning. F-- YOU! F-- YOU.”

The definition of ‘rape’ is not someone who doesn’t like your music or someone who doesn’t like you as a person. Of course, if Kurt Cobain legitimately got raped then I absolutely feel sorry for him, but somehow I doubt that’s what he meant. Especially when he was a total drama queen. As a side note, this is a slap in the face to all the legitimate rape victims, and I think that is surely the opposite of what he wanted since he talked about how horrible rape was all the time. It’s a free country, and people should not be forced to like your music (or you), deal with it. And besides, you had millions of dollars and a **** ton of people who worshiped you (probably outnumbering the haters), and all you had to do to get it was sing and play guitar. 99.9% of humanity was not in that kind of a position. You think you’re being oppressed? Good grief.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm glad he's dead. People like him are the ones who would come up with 'macho men are childish' when nobody was more childish than he was.

 

[caketastydelish]

I'll also add that plenty of other countries have that same 'macho men' bullcrap that America does. So even if your assertions are true, American aren't particularly more childish than plenty of other places.

 

[Honor]

+ Being a child, remaining a child, being childish are actually good things under the right conditions. "Macho men are childish" simply translates as "macho men are human" to me. I think the problem is that "childish" has a negative meaning in the first place. I feel like being an adult simply means you have shed some of your humanity to conform to the tiny box of acceptable ways of being set forth by your society. I understand this is to prevent antisocial behavior, but it also prevents real human bonding - you continuously hit invisible walls until there isn't much light left within you. A harsh environment creates people who suffer from it, creating conflict and subsequent antisocial behavior. This pushes for more rules and criminalization, which results in people not being able to be themselves, even if they are otherwise not suffering and would not engage in antisocial behavior in the absence of a legislative structure to inhibit such behavior.

I would support @caketastydelish's point of view in this debate because the post he was replying to lacked empathy towards men who were being "childish" (i.e. being themselves, as molded by their environment). But I would also hope to distance cake from the feeling that being childish is not okay, especially for men.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I guess what I mean is, people on the right are more concerned with individual success, whereas people on the left are more concerned with collective success.

I think you've found something we can agree on, to some extent. That's not to say that most people on the right aren't concerned with collective success in some situations - after all, they want their political party to win (no matter how much cheating they have to do to accomplish this; I am, of course, referring to the situation in Canada), and as most people likely do, they want their general surroundings - location, family, peers - to prosper financially.

But if they can't relate to a situation where success doesn't do anything for them personally, chances are that they won't give a damn about it. Or so my observations have indicated.

Likewise, people on the left are concerned with individual success, but not so much at the expense of the rest of society. For that matter, "the rest of society" doesn't even have to be human. I willingly took a failing grade on a major assignment in one of my science classes because I refused to kill insects, stick pins in their dead bodies, and mount them on a board.

People on the right would hate to be considered weak, but couldn't care less if you thought they were racist. People on the left would hate to be considered racist, but couldn't care less if you thought they were weak.

Again, you're generalizing when the truth is that not all fit in with this. If I'd called my mother a racist to her face, she'd have slapped me... but the fact is that she really was racist.

As for weakness, it depends on the context. It's true that there are many things I'm not capable of doing physically because I don't have the strength or dexterity, and don't feel any shame in saying so and asking for help if needed. But something I've found out since joining the ranks of the physically disabled: Some people tend to think that if your physical situation isn't par, neither is your mind. There have been numerous times when I've told some condescending jerk of an agent or clerk or receptionist - or even some government bureaucrat that while I'm mobility-challenged and my hands don't do what I tell them at times, my mind still works fine, thankyouverymuch, and I don't need their condescending attitude.

 

[Traitorfish]

I didn't say the macho garbage was the cause but that it's a symptom of something deeper.

Well, my point is that calling it all "macho garbage" is too broad a brush. A lot of it isn't espousing masculine values as much as simply presenting them, or even mocking them.

Perhaps i am not interpreting your statement correctly or perhaps you (or i) misunderstood civver's post. Projection is a defense mechanism to an uncomfortable or intolerable unconscious thought (as civver suggested. I did not assume he was saying that these people were behaving as ****s or racists). This creates anxiety (as cake suggested) which is relieved by the projected response.

But Civver's exact phrasing was: "I'd imagine a lot of them are trying to compensate for their own bigoted thoughts, so they project them onto other people." It's fairly clear that he thinks this projection is a balm for actual racist or sexist attitudes which the holder feels guilty about, when it's really more about an anxiety that they hold latent racist or sexist attitudes, or may be perceived by racism or sexism by others.

It's like, when a nervous young punk calls everybody else a "poser", it's not that he's a poser and is trying to distract you from it, it's that he's worried that he might, deep-down, be a poser, or that he might be perceived as such. It's not a "gotcha", it's just a dynamic found in any subculture with high standards for moral purity and low standards for interpersonal etiquette.

Actually, your earlier comment about the right wing may very well be interpreted as a projection.

It's not, my masculine insecurities are largely beard-orientated rather than penis-orientated.

If I had something in particular to so say about Greek religious conservatives or ultra-Orthodox Jews, well, then you might be on to something.

 

[bernie14]

But Civver's exact phrasing was: "I'd imagine a lot of them are trying to compensate for their own bigoted thoughts, so they project them onto other people." It's fairly clear that he thinks this projection is a balm for actual racist or sexist attitudes which the holder feels guilty about, when it's really more about an anxiety that they hold latent racist or sexist attitudes, or may be perceived by racism or sexism by others.

It's like, when a nervous young punk calls everybody else a "poser", it's not that he's a poser and is trying to distract you from it, it's that he's worried that he might, deep-down, be a poser, or that he might be perceived as such. It's not a "gotcha", it's just a dynamic found in any subculture with high standards for moral purity and low standards for interpersonal etiquette.

Got it, I assumed civver was talking about unconscious thoughts and you assumed he was talking about conscious thoughts.

It's not, my masculine insecurities are largely beard-orientated rather than penis-orientated.

If I had something in particular to so say about Greek religious conservatives or ultra-Orthodox Jews, well, then you might be on to something.

your immediate denial raises questions worth exploring... , but at least you responded with humor, a more mature defense

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Fear the beard!!!!