The Rights of Men

[Ryika]

Next question - If sexism never stopped, is that because it continues or because it never existed?

That's an extremely loaded and useless question that is just trying to misrepresent the person answering it.

So I'll answer it.

Sexism continues to exist and will always exist, no matter how good of a society we become. The only way to totally get rid of sexism is to literally remove our species from existence.

 

[Senethro]

Sexism definitely exists Senethro. "Men can't multi-task" is one I hear quite often.

Does this belief systematically disadvantage men though?

 

[Ryika]

Does this belief systematically disadvantage men though?

Of course it does, one example was even named in this thread:
Men who want to work with young children are often seen as pedophiles. So men have a hard time working in kindgardens and basic schools (or whatever these are called in America).

 

[Senethro]

That's an extremely loaded and useless question that is just trying to misrepresent the person answering it.

So I'll answer it.

Sexism continues to exist and will always exist, no matter how good of a society we become. The only way to totally get rid of sexism is to literally remove our species from existence.

So how about he represents himself!

Asking someone if racism ever existed is kind of a useful baseline sanity check for whether constructive discussion is possible on race relations.

Yo, you edited. I preferred the first version of your post. This one is nihilistic.

 

[brennan]

Not as much as the belief that men don't need help with mental health problems (re: men suffer more suicides) or a lack of housing (men are far more likely to be homeless on the streets).

Seriously, have you got anything sensible to ask?

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Does this belief systematically disadvantage men though?

And there we go, the place we all knew this was going sooner or later, the old "individuals discriminating against individuals isn't really (racism/sexism/whateverism), <BLANK>ism means institutionalized <BLANK>ism" argument. Which is just a nicer way of phrasing the standard modern progressive belief that it's okay to discriminate against some groups of people because they have "privilege" so it's "punching up" rather than hate.

 

[warpus]

Does this belief systematically disadvantage men though?

Does sexism have to be systematic to be sexism?

 

[Ryika]

So how about he represents himself!

Asking someone if racism ever existed is kind of a useful baseline sanity check for whether constructive discussion is possible on race relations.

Yo, you edited. I preferred the first version of your post. This one is nihilistic.

Well, the other one was melodramatic. ^^

But still, he had already told you that you were misrepresenting him and looking at how the conversation went, I agree with him. There is just no need for these petty word games, either refute what he says or ignore his posts - no sensible discussion comes from "forcing" him to randomly answer questions that have nothing to do with his actual position that he's made clear before.

 

[Senethro]

Of course it does, one example was even named in this thread:
Men who want to work with young children are often seen as pedophiles. So men have a hard time working in kindgardens and basic schools (or whatever these are called in America).

Thats a different belief. That one is pretty harmful, but its also born of believing that feminine (nurturing) behaviour in men is wrong, insincere or suspect.

Maybe if the things traditionally associated with feminine roles weren't seen as out of bounds to men, things would be better. Its like how gay men were thought to be "wrong" because of supposed feminine behaviour.

 

[Ryika]

Thats a different belief. That one is pretty harmful, but its also born of believing that feminine (nurturing) behaviour in men is wrong, insincere or suspect.

Yes, and that is a sexist view, because obviously it's not true. What's the argument?

 

[Senethro]

Does sexism have to be systematic to be sexism?

Saying yes seems to be out of fashion around here. So I'm going to say kinda. Mostly. In its most damaging form.

 

[Senethro]

Yes, and that is a sexist view, because obviously it's not true. What's the argument?

(men need feminism too)

 

[brennan]

Thats a different belief. That one is pretty harmful, but its also born of believing that feminine (nurturing) behaviour in men is wrong, insincere or suspect.

Who on Earth believes that? Suspicion falls on men working with children because society is ingrained with paranoia about paedophiles and the idea that every man really just wants to rape anything that moves, not because people view nurturing behaviour in men as wrong. Those are two negative ideas about men prevalent in feminist thought and propaganda.

Women need men's rights too.

 

[Ryika]

(men need feminism too)

That's just an empty phrase without much meaning. Feminism is not required to remove misconceptions about men, quite the opposite, many feminists agree with you and suggest that sexism against men doesn't even exist because "men are in power".

How long are we supposed to wait for feminism to fix an issue that it does not even acknowledge? Can we not just start trying to make people slowly remove their prejudices without wrapping the whole thing into an ideological package?

 

[Senethro]

Who on Earth believes that? Suspicion falls on men working with children because society is ingrained with paranoia about paedophiles and the idea that every man really just wants to rape anything that moves, not because people view nurturing behaviour in men as wrong. Those are two negative ideas about men prevalent in feminist thought and propaganda.

Women need men's rights too.

m8, have you never heard blokes down the pub talk about those male nurses?

 

[brennan]

1. No.

2. If I went back and watched some seedy 70's comedy in which some blokes were sniggering about male nurses they would be questioning their masculinity not attributing them with nefarious perverted motives.

3. I've noticed this before, you have a strangely warped view of society.

 

[Senethro]

That's just an empty phrase without much meaning. Feminism is not required to remove misconceptions about men, quite the opposite, many feminists agree with you and suggest that sexism against men doesn't even exist because "men are in power".

Not copping to this. Ain't me.

How long are we supposed to wait for feminism to fix an issue that it does not even acknowledge?

But it does acknowledge it. Or some arms of it do.

Can we not just start trying to make people slowly remove their prejudices without wrapping the whole thing into an ideological package?

Its social politics. You can't not be ideological about it, because thats accepting the status quo as valid. When you are making statements about the correct roles for genders then that is a form of political speech.

 

[Senethro]

3. I've noticed this before, you have a strangely warped view of society.

Have you ever been in society? Do you have ears? I'd have thought that would have been enough.

 

[brennan]

Who was making statements about correct roles for genders???

And hang on, are you conflating suspicions about gay men being paedophiles with this weird idea you have that caring fathers are viewed as insincere and wrong? I mean... Father's day, Father Christmas, Father figure... fatherhood is viewed as a positive thing.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

1. No.

2. If I went back and watched some seedy 70's comedy in which some blokes were sniggering about male nurses they would be questioning their masculinity not attributing them with nefarious perverted motives.

3. I've noticed this before, you have a strangely warped view of society.

I was going to say... are you sure you aren't just hanging out with douche bags, Senethro? I can't remember ever actually hearing dudes talking smack about other dudes for being nurses. Maybe if I used my time machine to travel back to the 50's. I have heard people make comments like "He works with children? He must be a pervert" more than once though.